Don't tell them you know martial arts

[K-man]

True, but there is debate as to what is "reasonable force."

Which in itself is a good reason to train 'soft' techniques.

 

[Carol]

True, but there is debate as to what is "reasonable force."

Martial arts skills of the defender have nothing to do with use of force. This is a dangerous misconception. This is what gives rise to the Hollywood-addicted people wringing their hands and whining at peace officers asking "Why can't the cop just shoot the gun out of the teenager's hand?"

 

[ballen0351]

True, but there is debate as to what is "reasonable force."

There is a debate where?

 

[drop bear]

There is a debate where?

Normally in the courtroom. Where he will say because you are a martial arts kill monster. And so your force was unreasonable where his was justified.

 

[drop bear]

George Zimmerman trial MMA-day in Trayvon Martin shooting case - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel

Mma used in the Zimmerman trial.

 

[K-man]

Normally in the courtroom. Where he will say because you are a martial arts kill monster. And so your force was unreasonable where his was justified.

I would be interested in knowing how many cases of that happening in Australia you could cite.

We even had the ludicrous case here where a well known Melbourne criminal shot and killed another well known Melbourne criminal with an illegal handgun in dubious circumstances and was still able to claim self defence and escape prosecution.

But is is reasonably clear cut here as to what you can do ...

Looking to self-defence in legislation, we can turn to s 10.4(2) of the Criminal Code 1994 (Cth) which states the following:

A person carries out conduct in self-defence if, and only if, he or she believes the conduct is necessary:

• to defend himself or herself or another person; or
• to prevent or terminate the unlawful imprisonment of himself or herself or another person; or
• to protect property from unlawful appropriation, destruction, damage or interference; or
• to prevent criminal trespass to any land or premises; or
• to remove from any land or premises a person who is committing criminal trespass.

The general rule regarding self-defence is that a person is allowed to take any defensive or evasive steps that they believe to be necessary. Unlike other areas of law, self-defence isn’t reliant on a specific formulaic approach, but rather, is dependent on the facts of the matter, with the question left for the courts and a jury to decide.
Self-defence law in Australia

Nothing at all to do with a martial art background.

 

[drop bear]

The general rule regarding self-defence is that a person is allowed to take any defensive or evasive steps that they believe to be necessary. Unlike other areas of law, self-defence isn’t reliant on a specific formulaic approach, but rather, is dependent on the facts of the matter, with the question left for the courts and a jury to decide.

Finding a case will be hard. I found the Zimmerman one because I was following the trial.

Here is the cheeky bit in that law. In that it becomes a lot more complicated than just citing the law. What is determined as a factor is argued in court.

And I don't think people realise how an adversarial system really works in practice. It is not a case where both sides present the facts or even the truth. It is basically a blood sport where the better lawyers have the unfair advantage.

So this idea that you followed your interpretations of reasonable and therefore you are safe is just not true.

So your case of dodgy guy with gun getting off. I had a friend throw a guy out get tackled by the guys mates the whole thing falls to the ground and the guy looses teeth.

My friend did two years.(which I am trying to hunt down now) that is not a martial artist matter but a general wtf just happened, matter.

The outcome is dependent more on how good your lawyer is than you would want to believe.

 

[Steve]

I don't know drop bear. You might be right. I heard somewhere that In most countries the legal system is a means of transferring money. That is where the money goes from your account to theirs. I just can't seem to remember who said that....

 

[Hyoho]

Just say when attacked, 'Please don't beat me up. I have Dan grade'.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you're ever involved in a physical altercation self defense situation and it goes to court, don't tell them or let them know in any way, shape, or form if you've got any background in the martial arts. It will probably work against you in court.

Unless you train in absolute secrecy, if it comes up in court they will find out about your martial arts background. If it is an issue the lawyer for the opposing side, if he/she is competent, will do some basic research.

 

[LibbyW]

Perhaps the process should be;

Good Training - Good Self Defense - Good Discipline - Good Legal Defense - Good Bank Statement to pay for legal fees...

Isn't this why Nick Cage went to prison in Con Air? I remember him icing some guys at the beginning, and because of his high level of combat training the court ruled he should have been able to overcome his opponents non lethally.
Poor Nicolas Cage. Steve Buscemi was creepy in that movie.

But seriously though, in college I was reprimanded for defending myself. Some jerk got a little "Grabby", I wrist locked him down onto the ground and knelt on his head until he said sorry. The Administration decided I acted inappropriately and called the police. Luckily though, even though "Grabby" he wasn't a complete *** and didn't press charges. But he could of done, and that is the point.
Which sucks
L

 

[Tez3]

The law on

Perhaps the process should be;

Good Training - Good Self Defense - Good Discipline - Good Legal Defense - Good Bank Statement to pay for legal fees...

Isn't this why Nick Cage went to prison in Con Air? I remember him icing some guys at the beginning, and because of his high level of combat training the court ruled he should have been able to overcome his opponents non lethally.
Poor Nicolas Cage. Steve Buscemi was creepy in that movie.

But seriously though, in college I was reprimanded for defending myself. Some jerk got a little "Grabby", I wrist locked him down onto the ground and knelt on his head until he said sorry. The Administration decided I acted inappropriately and called the police. Luckily though, even though "Grabby" he wasn't a complete *** and didn't press charges. But he could of done, and that is the point.
Which sucks
L

Was that in the UK? If so the college was wrong, even if the boy decided he wanted to have you charged, it wouldn't have worked that way. The police would have taken further statements, investigated then taken it to the CPS who most likely would have thrown it out. I assume the boy attacked first, you defended yourself without injuring ( ?) him and did it with reasonable force which is allowed. People like college admin rarely if ever know the law and are only concerned about covering their backsides in case they get sued.
Here when people 'press charges' it's not a case of the police automatically doing that, they can as well if they feel it's warranted arrest anyway whether or not 'charges are pressed', the final arbiter on whether it goes to court is the CPS.

('Pressing charges' is not something you can actually do here, people use the expression because they've watched too many American films and television programmes. You can make a complaint to the police, this boy decided not to but you can't 'press charges' here.)

 

[K-man]

I don't know drop bear. You might be right. I heard somewhere that In most countries the legal system is a means of transferring money. That is where the money goes from your account to theirs. I just can't seem to remember who said that....

I'm not sure who would have said that but whoever it was must have a brilliant mind as it matches my thoughts completely. Well said that man!

But seriously, my formal training was in contract law and as a senior barrister put it to me once as I stood to lose everything I owned ... "You are playing the litigation game". Win or lose in that arena and it still costs you money, big time.

When it comes to criminal law it is a little different. One of my senior guys is a retired cop. His explanation is similar to what Tez said applies in the UK. If there is an altercation the police will conduct a preliminary investigation, interview witnesses and decide whether there is a case to be answered. If yes, then they will prepare a brief for the prosecutor. If no, everyone goes home. Now if there is a party that sustains damages, as in the case cited by Drop Bear with the broken teeth, that person can sue for damages in the civil court.

However, in the case of self defence, unless the victim does something extreme, there is virtually no chance they will end up being charged.

 

[LibbyW]

The law on



Was that in the UK? If so the college was wrong, even if the boy decided he wanted to have you charged, it wouldn't have worked that way. The police would have taken further statements, investigated then taken it to the CPS who most likely would have thrown it out. I assume the boy attacked first, you defended yourself without injuring ( ?) him and did it with reasonable force which is allowed. People like college admin rarely if ever know the law and are only concerned about covering their backsides in case they get sued.
Here when people 'press charges' it's not a case of the police automatically doing that, they can as well if they feel it's warranted arrest anyway whether or not 'charges are pressed', the final arbiter on whether it goes to court is the CPS.

('Pressing charges' is not something you can actually do here, people use the expression because they've watched too many American films and television programmes. You can make a complaint to the police, this boy decided not to but you can't 'press charges' here.)

Yes UK, I'm a Pompy girl.
I guess you could say he attacked first.
When I said "grabby" I meant in a pervy, copping a feel type way.
The guy didn't really mean me any harm, he wasn't in any way aggressive, just thought it was hilarious. Until he was on the ground of course
Once I had explained to the police officer that arrived late that afternoon what had happened he seemed satisfied that I didn't do anything I shouldn't have and as long as I was happy for the situation to be dropped then both the guy in question and the college admin were happy also.
I still got a caution from the college though, they ran a three strike system. It bugged me a lot because they didn't handle it very delicately, in the sense that EVERYONE knew about it and I then got a reputation. Not so much with other students, I honestly don't think they really cared all that much, but some of the staff treated me differently after.
L

 

[Tez3]

Yes UK, I'm a Pompy girl.
I guess you could say he attacked first.
When I said "grabby" I meant in a pervy, copping a feel type way.
The guy didn't really mean me any harm, he wasn't in any way aggressive, just thought it was hilarious. Until he was on the ground of course
Once I had explained to the police officer that arrived late that afternoon what had happened he seemed satisfied that I didn't do anything I shouldn't have and as long as I was happy for the situation to be dropped then both the guy in question and the college admin were happy also.
I still got a caution from the college though, they ran a three strike system. It bugged me a lot because they didn't handle it very delicately, in the sense that EVERYONE knew about it and I then got a reputation. Not so much with other students, I honestly don't think they really cared all that much, but some of the staff treated me differently after.
L

I can imagine the college people running around like headless chickens not knowing how to deal with it, the anti bullying, anti abuse training seems to be very poor, the idea of the bully/abuser being a poor, unhappy soul who only needs a bit of love to set them on the right path is the one most current at the moment. While I'm sure a few are like that the majority are actually quite confident, self obsessed people who get off on hurting others is actually more like it. A little chat and everything will be fine doesn't work, much prefer your way of dealing with it!

 

[oftheherd1]

The law on



Was that in the UK? If so the college was wrong, even if the boy decided he wanted to have you charged, it wouldn't have worked that way. The police would have taken further statements, investigated then taken it to the CPS who most likely would have thrown it out. I assume the boy attacked first, you defended yourself without injuring ( ?) him and did it with reasonable force which is allowed. People like college admin rarely if ever know the law and are only concerned about covering their backsides in case they get sued.
Here when people 'press charges' it's not a case of the police automatically doing that, they can as well if they feel it's warranted arrest anyway whether or not 'charges are pressed', the final arbiter on whether it goes to court is the CPS.

('Pressing charges' is not something you can actually do here, people use the expression because they've watched too many American films and television programmes. You can make a complaint to the police, this boy decided not to but you can't 'press charges' here.)

Interesting. In the USA, in fact you can swear out a warrant and have someone arrested for just about anything. Then it will be up to the prosecutor and the courts to make it stick or not. I think it may vary from state to state if the prosecution has any leeway on whether or not they have to pursue or can request dismissal.

Institutions of "higher learning" may often have some rather unusual ways of handling things. They don't want bad publicity which they fear may lead to lowering of enrollment, or the quality of students allowed in. Colleges and universities are first businesses. Then they may or may not be good at teaching. But for the same reason, in today's society, they would fear a reputation of allowing sexual abuse to occur without reprisals against perpetrators. I don't know if colleges and universities look at things the same in the UK or not.

 

[Tez3]

The police and the Crown Prosecution Service deal with all criminal cases in the UK, you can't swear out a warrant for arrest as a civilian if it's a criminal offence. If it's not criminal you can go to a civil court but you pay for it which can prove very costly. Civil courts cover things like libel/slander, civil disputes, debt ( though there is a cheap way to deal with smaller debts through the small Claims Court) damages and the like. Either Libby or the other student could in theory ( if well off enough) have taken the college to court for damages claiming the college was to blame in someway. We also have Employment Tribunals which deal with work cases, unfair dismissal, discrimination etc.
Reporting a Crime Victims and Witnesses The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Mad_Dog]

When I started on the job there was an old, salty bouncer we all called Murph. Murph was a legend, revered with the same respect as a military or religious leader. When he spoke we all listened.

One day, after a few drinks, he spilled to us what had been eating away at his mind. Several years ago, while on the job, multiple armed men descended upon the bar he was protecting. Murph used his skills to protect the patrons within and killed several assailants. Because he was trained in the martial arts the DA decided to prosecute. Murph ended up doing five years in the pen. Take that for what you will.

 

[K-man]

When I started on the job there was an old, salty bouncer we all called Murph. Murph was a legend, revered with the same respect as a military or religious leader. When he spoke we all listened.

One day, after a few drinks, he spilled to us what had been eating away at his mind. Several years ago, while on the job, multiple armed men descended upon the bar he was protecting. Murph used his skills to protect the patrons within and killed several assailants. Because he was trained in the martial arts the DA decided to prosecute. Murph ended up doing five years in the pen. Take that for what you will.

Perhaps you could give us some details. I've just spent a bit of time looking for an incident like you described and found nothing. Surprising because I would have thought something like that would have been all over the press.

What I did find though was in the UK where a gang of armed thugs attacked a bouncer in his own home. He actually beat them off using an axe but ended up with five years jail for overstepping the line.

A man who inflicted life-threatening injuries on a member of an armed gang who burst into his Carlisle house has been jailed for five years.
News Star News Five years jail for Carlisle axe attack

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps you could give us some details. I've just spent a bit of time looking for an incident like you described and found nothing. Surprising because I would have thought something like that would have been all over the press.

What I did find though was in the UK where a gang of armed thugs attacked a bouncer in his own home. He actually beat them off using an axe but ended up with five years jail for overstepping the line.

He certainly did overstep the mark, he used reasonable force right up to the point the attacker landed in a heap on the ground and the guy attacked him with the axe, that's beyond reasonable force. However mad you are with the attackers once you've seen them off you have to step back once the danger had gone, a man lying in a heap on the ground is not an attacker anymore.


"Judge Batty told him that he accepted that “trouble came to you in your own home”.

But he added: “There came a point, fairly early on, when you were no longer under attack, but became the attacker yourself.

“There was repeated violence inside the house at a time when there was no threat to you and then it was continued outside.”

Judge Batty said Bowman, who used to work as a licensed doorman before getting a job with an events security firm, had been “perfectly entitled” to defend himself and even to “resort to extreme violence” and cause injury with the axe.

But he added: “You almost killed him inside the house and then you threw him out so that he landed in a heap in the garden. And then you struck him full force in the face with the axe.”