Don't be afraid...

[saru1968]

I think the issue seems to be not what is said but how its worded...

I'm guilty of it myself on occasion.

Slightly different situation really to your comment about Ben's post, seattleCJ

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I hate to cause waves with you Brian, because you are the most level headed guy here IMO.
There does seem to be a double standard though, or maybe just a blind eye to some who are percieved as "experts", or "seniors".
Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion. He was actually encouraged by many posters.

I dont think Richards post warrants this much controversy , especially when looking at the rant thread where people and methods are constantly being degraded etc.

Just my opinions though, which by looking at my reputation points are obviously worth nothing really. :wah:

Anyway...carry on

Actually your opinions as are everyone's are very important. No waves caused. We also try not to have any double standards here at MartialTalk and if you ever have a post that you think is out of line please report it.
At that point we discuss what to do or if anything needs to be done regarding it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..

Balance neh?

Sure, but get this - I'm willing to bet a lot that the Bujinkan "subculture" which employs frequent usage of sparring came about because a lot of people were brought out of their naive "invincibility" phase in a way too blunt fashion. It happened to me as well, but I'm over it. I think.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sigh...

As far as incorrect, that is the way I speak, I do not feel it is disrespectful to say incorrect when something is.. You cannot hear my voice or see my face or feel me, you are reading into everything and deeming it disrespectful and worse yet saying I a trying to mask my true intentions. MAJOR assumptions on your part! And yes, these are also incorrect. Look at some other posters here on martial talk and the OUTRIGHT disrespect shown. I assume it to be a matter of "clicks and groups" personally. Sorry, just my opinion...

I call Mr. Hatsumi just that or Hatsumi San which is respectful. For God sakes Ben Cole has called my teacher "Mr. T."! I do not call him Sensei or Soke because he is not my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't call mr. manaka Sensei or Soke even though I have great respect for both men, they are NOT my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't say Ueshiba Sensei etc..

You are also incorrect in that Mr. Hatsumi is not the Soke of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, he is the "kan-cho" Just like tanemura Sensei is Kan-Cho of Genbukan. Again, not disrespect, just correct terms and nothing more.

I personally feel that you calling Tanemura Sensei "sensei" is incorrect (he is not your teacher) and disrespectful to Mr. Hatsumi. again my personal feelings here your milage may vary...

In the end I feel you are grasping at straws and LOOKING to find what you want to find. At least that is how it seems to me...



What about it?



Again, I feel what I have written has been respectful. I think you are on the hunt for things to get offended by. I hope that my explainations to these offensive words have helped you to understand what I said a little better.


Now, what about the other folks here who have been very obvious with their offense? I know some have appologized (thaks for that and no worries..) on this thread, but there are other examples, why not up in arms with them?

It is interesting to say the least.

Anyway, like I said, I have no intentions on posting any new threads here in this section of martial talk as I didn't understand it was a Budo taijutsu forum, sumimasen. I also won't bother to add opinions to any other ongoing threads in this section.

I will stay around a bit to clear up any loose ends on these threads and then move on. martial talk has other forums where my view points might better "fit in" Its a nice site I enoy it!

Regards,

First Richard do not worry to much about me being offended I have incredibly thick skin and since I am moderating here I am trying to keep this a friendly discussion forum as per what MartialTalk is all about. My advice to you is to look at how you word things when you type thinking through if you are going to offend or not. ( is that really to much to ask)

I think we are having a miscommunication problem here based on the internets inherent limitations. Yet I think you will find that your problems with here and other forums will be alot less if you carefully think through how you word your posts regarding these inherent limitations of the internet.

As for this particular forum it is for Traditional Ninjutsu which as we all know that last lines come from down from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei (Bujinkan) and eventually to Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.
So technically we are interested in friendly talk regarding the Genbukan and Jinekan. So you are welcome to post here as well in a friendly manner. (I for one would enjoy that) Good luck.

 

[bencole]

I truly believe that your methods of training or not the best way to achieve real world results, you feel the same about mine. (snip) Regarding rolling with my own Soke. If it were proper and allowed and he agreed, I would LOVE to do so! (snip) But it is not allowed and or proper so I would never entertain the thought.

So for the record, you agree that the methods of training used by Mr. Tanemura are also "not the best way to achieve real world results." I just want you to confirm this for me and him....

It was written tongue-in-cheek.

I do not think anyone honestly believes this, which is precisely why Brian has taken time to suggest other ways of wording things.

Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion. He was actually encouraged by many posters.

That individual was placed in the sin bin and warned by *TWO* different moderators that what had been said was inappropriate. Your point is what: That because you did not see a public reprimand that the moderators were not doing their jobs?

(insert Bill the Cat sound here)

Boxing stances, techniques and training were not standardized in the way they are today prior to the early 20th century. Before then, you would have seen a proliferation of different boxing stances

Its amazing how quickly Martial Talk has devolved into "Bullshido, Jr." and how you cannot have any kind of discussion without "MMA will kick your ***, LARPER!" coming up on here...

I agree with Cryo.

It would be a true shame if the world of martial arts were reduced down into MMA rolling with "standardized" methods.... Alas, this seems to be the sole thrust of these "alive" proponents.

-ben

 

[Tenchijin2]

As an observer, with no dog in this fight, I'd like to say that it really appears to me that Richard has gone out of his way to be careful and polite in this discussion.

The same cannot be said of many of the counter posters. Really, the nastiness coming from MY SIDE (the Bujinkan side) is really embarassing. Upping the ante, begging the question, strawman tactics. It's sickening to read.

And I'm just calling it as I see it. I have had plenty of rows online with Richard over the years, and I am perfectly willing to call a spade a spade if I see it. But this aint it, folks.

Rick's main point isn't even controversial: if you want to know what you're capable of doing under pressure, you have to actually put yourself under some kinds of pressure to find out. Your instructor's assessments, your faith, your lineage, your assumptions... NONE of those things can replace actual experience in spontaneous application of what you know in various controlled environments. None of them are perfect, but to throw out 'sparring' or 'alive' training because it isn't perfect is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And seriously folks, I don't even do a whole lot of 'alive' type training but I'm not going to deny it's appeal or its strengths. That's just silly.

I realize that I've opened myself up to all manner of nasty insinuations and criticisms which are pretty much the standard for these 'debates', so I shan't be responding. I just hope that my (relatively) objective viewpoint gets through to some of the heads here.

Carry on, then!

 

[makoto-dojo]

So for the record, you agree that the methods of training used by Mr. Tanemura are also "not the best way to achieve real world results." I just want you to confirm this for me and him....

Incorrect.

Your methods and Tanemura Sensei's methods are VERY different "for the record" Also for the record, did you know Jinenkan people do Randori as does their Kancho? No.. You may not include "your" training methods nor "conceptual ideas" with those of my Soke. As they are not the same. In fact you yourself in another thread have commented that My teacher had it all wrong anyway, so then how can you and he be doing the same thing?

Did you know that tanemura sensei has us practice against boxing attacks? Yep... How about the fact he never has told us to leave our arm sticking out there? You have NO idea of what Tanemura sensei teaches.

Do you Ben include lock flows, counter for counter drills, trapping combinations, randori of various sorts, weapons and without, arm conditioning drills, makiwara training, ground fighting, chi gung, different forms of meditation, kuji kiri etc.. In your training? What about the fact that Tanemura Sensei teaches us that we must modify the kihon at times to deal with kick boxers etc?

Do you do fast karate style punches in rapid combinations, "dragon tail" type sweep kicks, jumping kicks of various sorts, "karate type" speed blocking?

Yeah, my disagreeing with YOU and YOUR methods is NOT the same as me disagreeing with Tanemura Sensei's methods. not even in the same ball park!

Tanemura Sensei thinks kata is impotant. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei thinks strong kihon is important. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei thinks we must adapt to dealing with different styles. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei shows us various randori. I also think this is important!
The list goes on.. I happen to agree very well with what Tanemura Sensei does.

Please try barking up another tree...

 

[makoto-dojo]

I truly appreciate this post. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for saying this, especially when you have opened yourself up to abuse for having done so. You didn't have to and you did.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

As an observer, with no dog in this fight, I'd like to say that it really appears to me that Richard has gone out of his way to be careful and polite in this discussion.

The same cannot be said of many of the counter posters. Really, the nastiness coming from MY SIDE (the Bujinkan side) is really embarassing. Upping the ante, begging the question, strawman tactics. It's sickening to read.

And I'm just calling it as I see it. I have had plenty of rows online with Richard over the years, and I am perfectly willing to call a spade a spade if I see it. But this aint it, folks.

Rick's main point isn't even controversial: if you want to know what you're capable of doing under pressure, you have to actually put yourself under some kinds of pressure to find out. Your instructor's assessments, your faith, your lineage, your assumptions... NONE of those things can replace actual experience in spontaneous application of what you know in various controlled environments. None of them are perfect, but to throw out 'sparring' or 'alive' training because it isn't perfect is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And seriously folks, I don't even do a whole lot of 'alive' type training but I'm not going to deny it's appeal or its strengths. That's just silly.

I realize that I've opened myself up to all manner of nasty insinuations and criticisms which are pretty much the standard for these 'debates', so I shan't be responding. I just hope that my (relatively) objective viewpoint gets through to some of the heads here.

Carry on, then!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Also for the record, did you know Jinenkan people do Randori as does their Kancho? No..

From what I've heard, they have even higher requirements (than the Bujinkan, sadly) of the people doing it to have their stuff together beforehand.

Did you know that tanemura sensei has us practice against boxing attacks? Yep...

Is this done against other Genbukan practitioners, or do you employ outside professionals? I'll freely admit that we don't where I train, but the training method as such has been around for as long as I can remember.

Do you Ben include lock flows, counter for counter drills, trapping combinations, randori of various sorts, weapons and without, arm conditioning drills, makiwara training, ground fighting, chi gung, different forms of meditation, kuji kiri etc.. In your training?

We do, apart from the last bit, if anyone's interested.

What about the fact that Tanemura Sensei teaches us that we must modify the kihon at times to deal with kick boxers etc?

Excellent. However, he's not alone in the X-kan world in that regard.

Do you do fast karate style punches in rapid combinations, "dragon tail" type sweep kicks, jumping kicks of various sorts, "karate type" speed blocking?

Been there, done that, apart from the last segment, which I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Rook]

It would be a true shame if the world of martial arts were reduced down into MMA rolling with "standardized" methods.... Alas, this seems to be the sole thrust of these "alive" proponents.

Perhaps a bit of historical overview into how boxing, sub grappling and now MMA have come to be standardized is in order... No one forced standardization on any of these people. There was no committee that compelled it, no grandmaster that told them they should all fight in the same manner, there was no law passed saying that they had to fight that way, there was no rule that said that other strategies or techniques were prohibited. It just happened that certain strategies were more sucessful, and with the "put up or shut up" competition attitude, everything that was less sucessful faded into the history books. Even today, no one will stop you from stepping into a boxing ring with a 10-90 stance... you won't do too well, but thats boxing for you - no one is going to get a reputation as a boxer or a coach of boxers without the ring record to back it up.

 

[makoto-dojo]

You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon. Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San. Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan.

From the Jinenkan thread you started:

Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.

Quote from Dale Joseph.

Just wanted to point out once again the power of reading into things and how it colors perception. I was in fact using correct respectful terms. The Bujinkan is NOT a Ryu. It is a Kan. Hatsumi Massaki is the KANCHO of the Bujinkan NOT its soke. And also unless you are currently studying a ryu ha with him, not your Soke, but your Kancho.

I am just using the language correctly. Not being disrespectful.

Thank you.

 

[Rook]

The Bujinkan is NOT a Ryu. It is a Kan. Hatsumi Massaki is the KANCHO of the Bujinkan NOT its soke. And also unless you are currently studying a ryu ha with him, not your Soke, but your Kancho.

I am just using the language correctly. Not being disrespectful.

Thank you.

That sounds right. Isn't Hatsumi soke of the nine schools, not of the BBT, which is an organization not a ryu?

 

[Rook]

In my opinion I feel it is RUDE to talk about such things. *I* NEVER said anything like this. This is a Ben Cole tactic he has used for years. It is rude..

IMO...

The thread should move away from this subject...

I see no reason why. Mr. Cole raised the subject, and the use of such tactics could resolve this whole repetitive debate. It appears that they are not, however, available, which is unfortunate.

 

[makoto-dojo]

This might be a good question for the mods - should pressure testing, aliveness, street-vs.-sport, all ranges, etc. be recentralized in the MMA section rather than in the art it relates to? I wouldn't mind it as a person who frequents the MMA section, and I can see pros and cons for either way.

Hi,

I never understood why many people automatically lump randori with sport and MMA (Not saying you are btw, I think you made a good post) Randori/sparring is a part of most TRADITIONAL martial arts I can think of. lets see, here is a list of traditional arts that do randori or spar:

1. Japanese Jujutsu of various Ryu
2. Some kenjutsu
3. Aikido
4. All kung fu styles (maybe not all teachers but all styles)
5. Karate
6. Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do
7. Hwa Rang Do
8. Tae Kyon
9. All western martial arts

Now make a list of all "styles" that don't do randori?

Feel free...

Randori does NOT = Sports and MMA.

I think it would be silly to purge the Ninpo section of any randori talk just because Mr. Hatsumi doesn't do it (anymore...) Why put it in the MMA section when it IS traditional in ninpo (reference Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Sensei etc. Even Mr. Hatsumi has etc..)

But its not my forum so...

It will be interesting to see how it proceeds...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

***Admin Note***

I have done my best to weed out as much of the off-topic posts as I can. There appear to be several different topics that have come up within this thread that involve training techniques, histories, etc which cannot be easily disentangled. As such, I have decided to leave this thread locked, and encourage that those interested in picking up the various discussions do so in new separate threads, and refer back to this one as the starting point.

Thank you.