Don't be afraid...

[Cryozombie]

Well, thats not hard, membership is cheap... and I only bring this up so the excuse that people can't really do it because they have to be Bujinkan doesn't come up as the cop out...

NOT, BTW, that I would be advocating this sort of behavior...

 

[paolo_italy]

mh, speaking of challenges to shihan's and the soke for themselves (ie without them writing it here or somewhere else) seems to me very disrespectful, not to mention that it could create a big problem to someone.
isn't such behaviour the opposite of ninpo?

that's really sad, in my opinion...

bye,

paolo

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Not at all my intention. I'll leave it up to the mods if they want to leave what I wrote here up or not.

 

[Bujingodai]

I'd concur that this has become a really stupid discussion.
And as for training in the honbu having to be a member, well no one checked my card when I was there. Among the 100 that were there I don't think anyone would have that hard a time coming in.

But the conversation is just sad.
You know even if I thought I had the secret to knocking down Nagato for instance (I don't) I wouldn't out of respect, why are we entertaining this.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'd concur that this has become a really stupid discussion.
And as for training in the honbu having to be a member, well no one checked my card when I was there. Among the 100 that were there I don't think anyone would have that hard a time coming in.

But the conversation is just sad.
You know even if I thought I had the secret to knocking down Nagato for instance (I don't) I wouldn't out of respect, why are we entertaining this.

I would have to agree that this conversation is very, very sad and is going down a poor path.

Maybe we can return to the origional poster's post and have Richard clarify why his training at the Makoto Dojo and in the Genbukan particularly has shown him the light. As I said earlier I am particularly interested in hearing about the Genbukans training methodology as it is one of the three X-Kan's and Tanemura sensei is a fabulous technician. So if there is an abundance of pressure testing in the Genbukan I would be curious to hear about it in detail. For posterities sake and also to let everyone know about how the Genbukan does things.

If you do not want the Genbukan training methodology to be in this thread we can start up another. For myself I am just curious about what you are doing. Thanks.

 

[HG1]

And I do not know how I can do the type of training I have done when there is just a few of us trusted students in the dojo here......

Excellent point - I don't come from a Ninjutsu school but I know exactly what you mean.

 

[makoto-dojo]

I'd like to hear you describe what unfolded that allowed you to choke him out, or him you.

All the best,

-ben

Ben,

you and I just do not see eye to eye. My opinions and what not are exact opposite of yours. These sorts of exchanges (between us) will only lead to bickering back and forth and is a waste of time as neither one of us will change our minds. I truly believe that your methods of training or not the best way to achieve real world results, you feel the same about mine.

So lets agree to disagree I suppose and move on.

TRegarding rolling with my own Soke. If it were proper and allowed and he agreed, I would LOVE to do so! I would love to roll with anyone because I always learn something. But it is not allowed and or proper so I would never entertain the thought. maybe I can get some of my seniors to roll some day who knows?

Point is, it is not to see who is better than someone else, it is to LEARN, people who actually do randori respect each others after. (I amnot talking about sports either as SO many seem to read when they hear or see randori or alive training.) Just as I respect my partners when I do kata with them, I also respect them when I roll with them.

Alas, its a culture that those who don't do it will never understand..

Best regard Ben,

 

[makoto-dojo]

Should I take this to mean that Nagato of BBT and Tanemura of Genbukan are available to such matches? If that is the case, it should not be too difficult to find them appropriately matched opponents who would be more then willing to try them out.

In my opinion I feel it is RUDE to talk about such things. *I* NEVER said anything like this. This is a Ben Cole tactic he has used for years. It is rude..

IMO...

The thread should move away from this subject...

 

[makoto-dojo]

Ben I really do not think that there is massive sparring of any sort within Genbukan. All I have seen is a little bit of work with a Shinai and only targeting the wrists. (which had gloves on it) No I am not disparaging the Genbukan or Soke Tanemura (He is great at what he does) in any way just based on what I have seen and heard from several Genbukan practitioners. The Genbukan, Jinekan and Bujinkan are very close in their training methodologies with slight but subtle nuances to each. Soke Hatsumi who taught Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei is definately more focused on flow and letting go and being able to move in the moment. Tanemura Sensei is more thorough and wants his students to be precise. (nothing wrong with that) Manaka Sensei is moving in his own direction as well. However all three bear striking similarities to the other. (how could they not)

Hello, respectfully, I would like to say that what you know of the genbukan is very limited, as that is the way the genbukan is. So seeing things online, believe me you are not seeing much. Talking to Genbukan people? There is MUCH they will not tell you.

The ONLY way to know what the Genbukan is, is to join, develop a relationship with a teacher and go from there.

And please, people, try to understand that *I* am NOT THE GENBUKAN I am me! I still teach JKD, Kali and grappling and have all these years! It is not like I joined the genbukan and gave up everything else I know.. I am talking about sparring and drilling as an INDIVIDUAL, not as an organization. Please see that and I think allot of useless posts will be stopped (not saying yours is useless mind you)

Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit. However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.
Just enough but not too much. (if you catch my drift) MartialTalk is a forum geared towards friendly martial discussion. I would like to see you make some posts regarding positive training that you have had in the
Genbukan and also why you like this or that type of training within the
Genbukan.

You are incorrect...

I have specific feelings towards training, there have been some threads about reality training, so I am expressing my views on that subject and that is all. I have different views on different subjects...

Is ben cole out to "prove something"? I ask that honestly.. What about Don Roley? Both of these gentelmen have VERY strong opinionated views on things, have they been accused of being out to prove something?

I disagree with much of what each writes, and also I AGREE with allot of what they write, but even when I disagree I do not think they are out to "prove something" I feel they have strong opinions on certain subjects that's all.

It is a discussion forum right? Where we can debate?

Or only are we allowed to agree with the masses, does the "mob rule"?

 

[makoto-dojo]

I think that the title of this thread is a pretty clear hint that anyone that does not train the way he wants us to is doing so because we are afraid.

Mr Roley,

you are correct, the title could cause these feelings to arise, and for that I am sorry. It was written tongue-in-cheek. I tend to try to wax poetic in my posts Sumimasen.

But I understand your feelings on this, I do not think you or others are afraid, SOME may be, but I feel in your case and even ben's I think it has much less to do with being afraid, and much more to do with you both are sincerely trying to follow the teachings of people whom you obviously respect a great deal. And, I would never insult you for that, instead, I applaud you for having such strong convictions.

I hope that helps to clear things up a bit.

Sincerely,

 

[makoto-dojo]

The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.

With all due respect this is really a silly thing to say...


Regards,

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hello, respectfully, I would like to say that what you know of the genbukan is very limited, as that is the way the genbukan is. So seeing things online, believe me you are not seeing much. Talking to Genbukan people? There is MUCH they will not tell you.

The ONLY way to know what the Genbukan is, is to join, develop a relationship with a teacher and go from there.

And please, people, try to understand that *I* am NOT THE GENBUKAN I am me! I still teach JKD, Kali and grappling and have all these years! It is not like I joined the genbukan and gave up everything else I know.. I am talking about sparring and drilling as an INDIVIDUAL, not as an organization. Please see that and I think allot of useless posts will be stopped (not saying yours is useless mind you)



You are incorrect...

I have specific feelings towards training, there have been some threads about reality training, so I am expressing my views on that subject and that is all. I have different views on different subjects...

Is ben cole out to "prove something"? I ask that honestly.. What about Don Roley? Both of these gentelmen have VERY strong opinionated views on things, have they been accused of being out to prove something?

I disagree with much of what each writes, and also I AGREE with allot of what they write, but even when I disagree I do not think they are out to "prove something" I feel they have strong opinions on certain subjects that's all.

It is a discussion forum right? Where we can debate?

Or only are we allowed to agree with the masses, does the "mob rule"?

First Richard you are trying to speak in absolutes. You have no idea what I truly might know about the Genbukan or any other member here at MartialTalk for that matter. Truthfully you just do not know.

Clearly everyone here knows that you are not the Genbukan! That is obvious. (though you are a part of the organization)

Finally you are in the Traditional Ninjutsu section of the forum where we generally discuss Budo Taijutsu training. You are advocating that you know the true way and it is so clear. (note I am not disagreeing with you there just questioning) However in Budo Taijutsu which is the forerunner of any of the X-Kans you are starting or trying to push people that know about Budo Taijutsu training better than yourself that the training methodology coming out of japan is a fantasy. (do you see why some people now might be upset with that)

Personally I have no gripe here with your training methodology or how you train and incorporate sparring or rolling. (I do that myself in IRT) However I also understand how Budo Taijutsu is taught in Japan having been there and understand I believe why Hatsumi is teaching this way.

We do however have other sections for MMA/Grappling which is probably where your alive training posts should be taken at this time.

Once again I think you just need to be in the correct part of the MartialTalk forums and maybe carefully word your statements to stay in line with our Friendly type of Discussion Forum!

Truthfully I am glad you are here but you need to work within our friendly guidelines. Thanks.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Instead of going post by post and trying to clear up misconceptions (I just don't have time) I will just sum up my thoughts instead.

Randori in my mind does NOT = sports. It is a training method like others, with weakness and strength like all others. But in MY opinion, required for training. In MY opinion and that won't change...

I do not think any "kan" "sucks" as I think someone put it, nor do I think this of any Kan-Cho of any kan...

I do not think people who don't do as I do are afraid as a general rule. I DO think SOME are, but respect that others might just be trying to do their best to follow advice from people they trust. The title was poetic metaphor, as tends to be my personal bent... I appologize for any hurt feelings due to this title.

I am not the genbukan. I am me. I have my own opinions and feelings. These are what I express in discussions. My Soke's opinions might at times be VERY different than mine! I didn't see any cool-aid at the door when I was in Japan btw.. Genbukan is one of the organizations I belong to, it is not "who I am"

lastly, it is my personal belief that a person needs EXPERIENCE in order to really know something, very simple actually. When I see things like leaving your arm out there on purpose, I KNOW KNOW from personal experience, that that can be a VERY dangerous thing to do. I was offering a suggestion to others to think for themselves, when you do, there is no going back!

And while I am sure that my final statement will upset people (it is hard to stand for something and NOT upset at least a few people) I do believe that there are people who are afraid to lose what they think they have, and will use bullying and other methods to stop people from gaining personal power and experience. Because once you have seen something for yourself, you cannot go back.

Again, these are my opinions on a topic, of course not everyone will agree.

Good luck..

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Because once you have seen something for yourself, you cannot go back.

Which is exactly what I was trying to get across in my recent inputs to "the rant thread". Too much sparring tends to close people's minds as to the possibilities taijutsu offers.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Finally you are in the Traditional Ninjutsu section of the forum where we generally discuss Budo Taijutsu training. You are advocating that you know the true way and it is so clear. (note I am not disagreeing with you there just questioning) However in Budo Taijutsu which is the forerunner of any of the X-Kans you are starting or trying to push people that know about Budo Taijutsu training better than yourself that the training methodology coming out of japan is a fantasy. (do you see why some people now might be upset with that)

Incorrect.

I do not think *I* know the "true" way to train Budo Taijutsu. I suppose that hatsumi San would be the once for that as it is his creation not mine. I was never stating that at all!

I was however stating that BEYOND systems Kans, Styles, there are people! And that each PERSON irrespective of their "affiliations" owe it to themselves to gain EXPERIENCE and KNOW for themselves. That is it in a nutshell.

For example, I think Randori is essential for an INDIVIDUAL in order for that person to KNOW what they can and cannot do. I never said it would make "budo taijutsu better" To get good at "budo Taijutsu" follow what your kan-cho is telling you as best you can.

However Just being good at any "style" does not assure you that you yourself can handle various attacks. As an example, there is a well known incident where a person of VERY high rank and one considered VERY good at Budo Taijutsu was man handled by a BJJ beginner in front of a group of people. His being very good at BBT didn't help much in that case did it? The man was helpless...

There have been people who were "VERY GOOD" at JKD and went into a situation and got there butts handed to them! One of my old teachers Burt Richardson was WORLD CLASS at kali, he went into a Dog brothers contest and had his head handed to him.

You see my point yet?

I am not trying to tell people how to get good at BBT. not at all, don't listen to me on that one, listen to your kan-Cho!

I am sharing my strong opinion that each of us owe it to ourselves to "step into the light" of self discovery as individuals not styles and be honest with ourselves. I am not "telling" people they HAVE TO DO IT. I am however of a strong bent in that direction and I hope my obvious enthusiasm might inspire others in a simialr direction, simply because I sincerely believe it would be good for them.

However I must say that I didn't know that this was for Budo taijutsu discussion because I thought it read:

This forum is for the discussion of the X-Kan families. They are: BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan

Now that I know this I will respectfully bow out.

In addition I feel I have went out of my way to be respectful here, you feel it is not enough...

I think there might be other issues at work personally, but who knows. It just mightbe a bit too touchey feely for me heare.

but thanks for the invite non the less.

Take care,

 

[makoto-dojo]

Which is exactly what I was trying to get across in my recent inputs to "the rant thread". Too much sparring tends to close people's minds as to the possibilities taijutsu offers.

I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..

Balance neh?

 

[Carol]

I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..

Balance neh?

Hai so desu. I'm wondering if some of the concerns about sparring draw from its popularity in other arts/styles and if that is perhaps throwing the balance off a bit.

Plus, sparring is a lot of fun and (not speaking as a JMA practitioner, but as a musician), sometimes in the discipline of an art, what is fun is can sometimes take away from the other elements of pursuing the discipline.

Thats just my thoughts though

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Incorrect.

I do not think *I* know the "true" way to train Budo Taijutsu. I suppose that hatsumi San would be the once for that as it is his creation not mine. I was never stating that at all!

I was however stating that BEYOND systems Kans, Styles, there are people! And that each PERSON irrespective of their "affiliations" owe it to themselves to gain EXPERIENCE and KNOW for themselves. That is it in a nutshell.

For example, I think Randori is essential for an INDIVIDUAL in order for that person to KNOW what they can and cannot do. I never said it would make "budo taijutsu better" To get good at "budo Taijutsu" follow what your kan-cho is telling you as best you can.

However Just being good at any "style" does not assure you that you yourself can handle various attacks. As an example, there is a well known incident where a person of VERY high rank and one considered VERY good at Budo Taijutsu was man handled by a BJJ beginner in front of a group of people. His being very good at BBT didn't help much in that case did it? The man was helpless...

There have been people who were "VERY GOOD" at JKD and went into a situation and got there butts handed to them! One of my old teachers Burt Richardson was WORLD CLASS at kali, he went into a Dog brothers contest and had his head handed to him.

You see my point yet?

I am not trying to tell people how to get good at BBT. not at all, don't listen to me on that one, listen to your kan-Cho!

I am sharing my strong opinion that each of us owe it to ourselves to "step into the light" of self discovery as individuals not styles and be honest with ourselves. I am not "telling" people they HAVE TO DO IT. I am however of a strong bent in that direction and I hope my obvious enthusiasm might inspire others in a simialr direction, simply because I sincerely believe it would be good for them.

However I must say that I didn't know that this was for Budo taijutsu discussion because I thought it read:



Now that I know this I will respectfully bow out.

In addition I feel I have went out of my way to be respectful here, you feel it is not enough...

I think there might be other issues at work personally, but who knows. It just mightbe a bit too touchey feely for me heare.

but thanks for the invite non the less.

Take care,

Richard you are not going to get an argument from me on some of what you say. However it is more the way you phrase things and try to promote those things. You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon. Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San. Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan. I would not refer to Tanemura Soke as anything other than Tanemura Soke or Sensei.

For myself in IRT I have plenty of sparring. However generally in Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan training as taught in Japan there is not much. (this we all know)

A strong well formed and well written opinoin is generally appreciated by all. I would like most of your opinons if they were slightly worded differently. These then would conform nicely with how MartialTalk is viewed as a friendly martial arts forum.

 

[Seattletcj]

I hate to cause waves with you Brian, because you are the most level headed guy here IMO.
There does seem to be a double standard though, or maybe just a blind eye to some who are percieved as "experts", or "seniors".
Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion. He was actually encouraged by many posters.

I dont think Richards post warrants this much controversy , especially when looking at the rant thread where people and methods are constantly being degraded etc.

Just my opinions though, which by looking at my reputation points are obviously worth nothing really. :wah:

Anyway...carry on

 

[makoto-dojo]

Richard you are not going to get an argument from me on some of what you say. However it is more the way you phrase things and try to promote those things. You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon. Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San. Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan. I would not refer to Tanemura Soke as anything other than Tanemura Soke or Sensei.

Sigh...

As far as incorrect, that is the way I speak, I do not feel it is disrespectful to say incorrect when something is.. You cannot hear my voice or see my face or feel me, you are reading into everything and deeming it disrespectful and worse yet saying I a trying to mask my true intentions. MAJOR assumptions on your part! And yes, these are also incorrect. Look at some other posters here on martial talk and the OUTRIGHT disrespect shown. I assume it to be a matter of "clicks and groups" personally. Sorry, just my opinion...

I call Mr. Hatsumi just that or Hatsumi San which is respectful. For God sakes Ben Cole has called my teacher "Mr. T."! I do not call him Sensei or Soke because he is not my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't call mr. manaka Sensei or Soke even though I have great respect for both men, they are NOT my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't say Ueshiba Sensei etc..

You are also incorrect in that Mr. Hatsumi is not the Soke of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, he is the "kan-cho" Just like tanemura Sensei is Kan-Cho of Genbukan. Again, not disrespect, just correct terms and nothing more.

I personally feel that you calling Tanemura Sensei "sensei" is incorrect (he is not your teacher) and disrespectful to Mr. Hatsumi. again my personal feelings here your milage may vary...

In the end I feel you are grasping at straws and LOOKING to find what you want to find. At least that is how it seems to me...

For myself in IRT I have plenty of sparring. However generally in Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan training as taught in Japan there is not much. (this we all know)

What about it?

A strong well formed and well written opinoin is generally appreciated by all. I would like most of your opinons if they were slightly worded differently. These then would conform nicely with how MartialTalk is viewed as a friendly martial arts forum.

Again, I feel what I have written has been respectful. I think you are on the hunt for things to get offended by. I hope that my explainations to these offensive words have helped you to understand what I said a little better.


Now, what about the other folks here who have been very obvious with their offense? I know some have appologized (thaks for that and no worries..) on this thread, but there are other examples, why not up in arms with them?

It is interesting to say the least.

Anyway, like I said, I have no intentions on posting any new threads here in this section of martial talk as I didn't understand it was a Budo taijutsu forum, sumimasen. I also won't bother to add opinions to any other ongoing threads in this section.

I will stay around a bit to clear up any loose ends on these threads and then move on. martial talk has other forums where my view points might better "fit in" Its a nice site I enoy it!

Regards,