Don't be afraid...

[makoto-dojo]

To step into the light that is!

Reading through many of these posts, it is so clear that some people are so well intentioned, really doing their best to be good students. Really trying to do the "right thing". But just living in a world of make believe.

And I do not say that with any malice or ill will. I do not mean to be insulting in any way by saying that either. Because I do not believe that people are living in a make believe world on purpose. I think people just trust other people more than trusting themselves!

So much of what I read in these forums are CLEARLY the result of people spending allot of time in their heads and working these "concepts" with rag-doll uke, thus "proving" (in their minds that is) their concepts to work.

I love the moment of self realization, when people for the first time try to do their "dead-patterns" live. When they realize none of it is working like they thought. It is at that moment some very powerful choices are made.

Either they go back and hide in the darkness afraid of what they have seen, or they step into the light, bare once again and ready to face what needs to be faced in order to live a life a truth. The second option, takes immense courage and effort. The first option doesn't which is why so many choose it.

When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, SOOO Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc. In a live situation (i.e. no rag-dolls)! SO CLEAR!

And yet they profess it as if what they are saying is correct and anyone not towing the line just doesn't get it and is wrong. I would hope to God well meaning students are smarter than this!

All you have to do is try it, for real Really go in there with someone who knows their art and go for it, so simple, but so spooky at the same time. people often times identify with their rank, or relative position (in an organization) or what they are "known for" or their perceived abilities so strongly, that they cannot bear the thought of it al breaking down!

What if after so many years training I find that I am really not as good or "far along" as I once thought I was? Can I handle that? A zen master has said, in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the masters mind there are but a few... (or something like that )Are we ready for the beginners mind? Can we put the white belt back on at least metaphorically, or are we too set in our ways? Too afraid to see what we don't know, in other words, see ourselves as we TRULY are, stripped bare and not the persona we have grown to mistake for ourselves.

I remember having conversations with Mr. David Dow about the need for alive training, groundfighting etc. He wasn't really seeing the light. So I almost begged him to go see a person by the name of Matt Thornton who was coming into his area. Much to his credit (showing the brave sort of person he is) he went! When he came back he was humbled, he said they "played with him" and were not even trying! This was a man who lived in Japan for many years and was Mr. Nagato's top dog (no small feat!)

Look at him now! Why would he adopt the views he has and why does he train as he does? because he stepped into the light (which took guts!) he tried it out and seen for himself. he could have chosen to go back to the shadows, but he didn't and that is why he has become what he has become. Not that it matters, not that he needs it, but I am proud of him FWIW...

There was another incident where I was in conversation with a former student and one of his new mentors. When I found out that his mentor was coming to my neck of the woods, I offered to show up and SHOW them what I was talking about. (no intention to harm anyone mind you, but simply put up or shut up) My request was denied, but I was told that I was free to "jump him" if I wanted and I would end up in the hospital.. Even my ex-student told me that HE would put me in the hospital LOL!

Well, as I seen that they were not open to backing up with actions what they so vehemently pontificated online. I let them go to their own devices. However the story gets interesting when some time later, this (ex-student) contacts me about alive type training and ground work etc. I invite him over and even though I had what turned out to be pneumonia at the time, I proceeded to teach him a nice little lesson. (so much for putting me in the hospital...) He was unable to mount any defense or offense. As he laid there totally spent his "black belt" unceremoniously laying crumpled in a corner of the garage. I asked him, so what is that black belt truly worth? Sheepishly he muttered, "not much"...

When I asked him about his "mentor" and the whole hospital thing, he said "**** has no clue, no idea, you would kill him" And when pressed on the hospital issue, his reply was that he was wrong, stupid and sorry... He for months begged me to teach him (as long as we didn't tell anyone..) I of course declined...

So, what is the point of all of this?

I know that what I wrote will ruffle feathers, make some people mad at me or whatever, and that's okay. Even if you get mad at me, I will not be offended, because I know you are only doing what you believe in. I just hope you understand that I do not disrespect any of you, what I write is from my heart with good intentions. I hope you take it with that intention.

The point is that each of us owe it to OURSELVES to empower ourselves with truth. And we must get that "truth through experience"! (our Motto)
then you will be armed with a magic glass, and looking through this magic glass, you will be able to decipher gold from horse dung and you will be well on your way...

Good luck.
http://www.genbukan-ninpo.com/

 

[saru1968]

While that is you 'story', your opinion of which you are perfectly entitled.

The underlying 'point' for me is respect for my seniors. Now i'm happy with what i train in and i give respect and listen to those that have earnt it in my eyes....a very small list i might add.

If my Instructor wants me to train in a certain way, I do because i was to be on the same path as him, I'd be happy to be just 10% of his ability.

I listen to other points of view, i don't have a closed mind by any means and i certainly enjoy hard training, prob more than is good for me but just levels of training.

But it just comes down to my relationship with my Instructor, its importnat to me, I trust him, I trust his judgement on my training as my senior.

I personally have never found anything 'wanting' I've never been fobbed off with questions i've asked or 'situations' I've come up with.

But Richard the question i ask of you is that if your Instructor indicated that he did not want you to engage in a certain form of training would you still proceed and indeed how would this reflect on your relationship with him.

Might not mean alot to people these days but my relationship with my Instructor is important.

Gaz.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Hi,

thanks for the reply. I respect what you wrote. I really am happy for you and I know you are follwoing your path with a sincere heart.

But Richard the question i ask of you is that if your Instructor indicated that he did not want you to engage in a certai form of training would you still proceed and indeed how would this reflect on your relationship with him.

To answer your question.

First and formost, I am me. Myself. Not a style or organization. If I am teaching a class on Genbukan ninpo, I feel that it is my job to teach that class the way my teachers ask me to do it. And, I do!

But on my own time, or in classs other than genbukan I do what I want. if ANYONE tried to force me to do something only their way, I am gone! I do not play that game....

I am not defined by the styles I practice or teach. I am me, a creative, thinking alive human being, responsible for me and my family. That superseeds all 'systems".

Does that answer your question?

Sincerely,

 

[saru1968]

I am not defined by the styles I practice or teach. I am me, a creative, thinking alive human being, responsible for me and my family. That superseeds all 'systems".

Does that answer your question?

Sincerely,

Yep, pretty much.

The bottom line for me is that if i was to progress in my chosen art then i follow my Instructors advice.

And yes outside of class anyone is free to do as they wish, i suppose the problem only occurs when you bring this outside influences in class.

But no meaning to be difficult but..lets say you extra trainig outside the class in another art was affecting the dynamics of what you did in class. Lets say the weapons system of another style were impacting on your Ninpo weapon training, or maybe thats a level thing. The further you understand the better you can seperate the two systems.

So maybe the concern is more at a foundation level...

I really hope that makes sense as i've retyped this three times..lol

 

[bencole]

I love the moment of self realization, when people for the first time try to do their "dead-patterns" live. When they realize none of it is working like they thought.

Well, that is what you will get if you ignore the Soke's advice and focus your efforts on trying to "get techniques" on people, rather than working to allow the techniques to fall into place naturally.

Your budo should look like Buster Keaton, not Ken Shamrock.

If your opponent is able to resist you, you have not set up the circumstances correctly. This is Taijutsu 101. And you should be training to understand this point, rather than training to learn to put on techniques in a canned world.

If you are doing things correctly, even an opponent who is fully resisting will look compliant to an observer. This is because the opponent is not the one in charge.

When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, SOOO Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc.

It is SOOOO clear that you have your own experiences that cloud your own judgment about what can work and what cannot work. And it is clear that you have little experience training with the Japanese or understanding *WHY* things are the way that they are....

In a live situation (i.e. no rag-dolls)!

Sports arts are *NOT* live situations, by any means.

I remember having conversations with Mr. David Dow about the need for alive training, groundfighting etc. He wasn't really seeing the light. So I almost begged him to go see a person by the name of Matt Thornton who was coming into his area. Much to his credit (showing the brave sort of person he is) he went! When he came back he was humbled, he said they "played with him" and were not even trying! This was a man who lived in Japan for many years and was Mr. Nagato's top dog (no small feat!)

Um... I think even David would be hard pressed to make the case that he was Nagato's "top dog." David also knows that despite his desire to add things from Thornton into his training, Nagato (at twenty years his senior) would throw him through a wall! LOL!

And if David actually thinks that he could take Nagato in a real fight as a result of his "becoming bare" and "stepping into the light" as you put it, he should tell us here and let me know when he is going to Japan next. I'll book my flight and take the camcorder for posterity!

I know that what I wrote will ruffle feathers, make some people mad at me or whatever, and that's okay.

So, Rick. Have you rolled with Mr. Tanemura? Choked him out? Ya, know, "stepped into the light" and all that....

And do not tell me that Tanemura "spars" with kendo swords with certain students.

Have *YOU* gone all out with him like you are admonishing everyone else to do?

I'd like to hear you describe what unfolded that allowed you to choke him out, or him you.

All the best,

-ben

 

[Rook]

And if David actually thinks that he could take Nagato in a real fight as a result of his "becoming bare" and "stepping into the light" as you put it, he should tell us here and let me know when he is going to Japan next. I'll book my flight and take the camcorder for posterity!

.......

So, Rick. Have you rolled with Mr. Tanemura? Choked him out? Ya, know, "stepped into the light" and all that....

And do not tell me that Tanemura "spars" with kendo swords with certain students.

Have *YOU* gone all out with him like you are admonishing everyone else to do?

I'd like to hear you describe what unfolded that allowed you to choke him out, or him you.

Should I take this to mean that Nagato of BBT and Tanemura of Genbukan are available to such matches? If that is the case, it should not be too difficult to find them appropriately matched opponents who would be more then willing to try them out.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ben I really do not think that there is massive sparring of any sort within Genbukan. All I have seen is a little bit of work with a Shinai and only targeting the wrists. (which had gloves on it) No I am not disparaging the Genbukan or Soke Tanemura (He is great at what he does) in any way just based on what I have seen and heard from several Genbukan practitioners. The Genbukan, Jinekan and Bujinkan are very close in their training methodologies with slight but subtle nuances to each. Soke Hatsumi who taught Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei is definately more focused on flow and letting go and being able to move in the moment. Tanemura Sensei is more thorough and wants his students to be precise. (nothing wrong with that) Manaka Sensei is moving in his own direction as well. However all three bear striking similarities to the other. (how could they not)

Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit. However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.
Just enough but not too much. (if you catch my drift) MartialTalk is a forum geared towards friendly martial discussion. I would like to see you make some posts regarding positive training that you have had in the
Genbukan and also why you like this or that type of training within the
Genbukan.

 

[Don Roley]

Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit. However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.

I think that the title of this thread is a pretty clear hint that anyone that does not train the way he wants us to is doing so because we are afraid.

Of course, I have always thought that the reason many of us do not do sparring is because our teachers do not have us do it and we should do what they say and put our trust in them. Silly me.

I have this wacky idea that we should follow what our teachers do. And before we do something they have done, but are not having us do (or do a lot of) then we should know why before we take in on ourselves to do it. Maybe we are not ready, maybe there was a reason they dropped something. And I have gotten the weird idea after going to the Japanese week after week, year after year, that the idea of competition is something to be avoided. I have done some stuff where the outcome has not been determined, but that has been very rare. Most of the time we do something to work on and improve my taijutsu by other means. Strange thing, but I actually think I should be working on the stuff that these little guys tell me to work on rather than something else.

Of course, I do not think anyone in Japan has gone through the type of training Peytonn Quinn does with his adrenal stress training with suits and such. So I do not feel bad trying it out and considering using it if I move back to the states. But I would be very cautious.

After all, I complain a lot about people that will watch what the teachers do here in Japan and then do something completely different. It would be rather hypocritical of me to then do something similar when I move back to the states. Of course, my response would be that I do not think that the Japanese are aware of what a bulletman suit is. And I do not know how I can do the type of training I have done when there is just a few of us trusted students in the dojo here in Japan in America with all its lawyers and willingness to sue. The responses of those that seem to do anything other than the stuff being shown is along the line that they think for themselves. I do not understand why people would bother showing up for training with that type of attitude since students need to acknowledge that they do not know as much as the teacher. The teacher has been where we have not.

Of course, it has been my observation that some folks will just knock on the doors of as many teachers until they find one that will tell them what they want to hear. With all the various ways of looking at things, there is no shortage of finding someone or some art that will tell us our way of thinking is right. Then they feel justified in rejecting all the many, many masters they had asked before and even feel like attacking them since they are obviously not as great as the truth that is so obvious to us- since of course a student knows so very, very much.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Reading through many of these posts, it is so clear that some people are so well intentioned, really doing their best to be good students. Really trying to do the "right thing". But just living in a world of make believe.

Sooner or later, everyone finds out that trying to catch a free-moving arm and "putting on" wrist locks etc. on someone who doesn't want that is pretty much impossible. What strikes me, is that you took this realization a bit harder than others. No disrespect intended.

When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, SOOO Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc. In a live situation (i.e. no rag-dolls)!

From what I've gathered, bare-knuckle boxers in 19th century England used to have their weight on their rear leg and arms extended towards the opponent ichimonji style, mainly for the reason that there was no judge to separate the fighters in a clinch.

What if after so many years training I find that I am really not as good or "far along" as I once thought I was?

Oft-repeated quote of my instructor: "if you're going get beaten to death by somebody way better than you, make damn sure you don't die surprised."

A zen master has said, in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the masters mind there are but a few... (or something like that )

I always think to myself that if this were really true, Hatsumi would probably be the best beginner in the world...:ultracool

The way I interpret that personally is that the masters are much more adept at the concept of "mikiri", i.e. to see through the opponent's movements (kind of like the fact that elbows move slower than wrists and as such are more easily controlled).

but I was told that I was free to "jump him" if I wanted and I would end up in the hospital.. Even my ex-student told me that HE would put me in the hospital LOL!

The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.

 

[bydand]

The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.

PASS!! I don't have that good of life insurance and I have a family to think of.

Man if I have to ba afraid of stepping into the light, I hope Wal-Mart has rubber undies my size. I have to follow what those who are much, much better than I am (and probably ever will be) are teaching me. I am not about to muck it up by adding things before my level of training dictates it should be shown to me. Notice I said SHOWN to me, not ADDED. I am confident in my instructors abilities to impart the knowledge that I am ready for and not muddy up the water with additions that I am not ready for. Does what I have been taught work so far against the average aggressive drunk? Yes, it does; I know it does because you will not find "alter boy" anywhere on my lifes resume. Would it work against a professional fighter? Nope, I'd get my *** handed to me. Is that a shortcoming to my training? NO! that is a shortcoming in my ability and length of training.

 

[Alan Witty]

All I can say to this and every similar discussion is BORING. Reality and martial arts are what you make them. There are only a mathematically limited set of ways to hurt, maim etc another human being. All martial arts are variants on that basic theme with add on of weapons, etc. If the concepts are sound the practitioner is what makes it work. Ability and the willingness to apply it.

Second, given the many people in the Bujinkan, much less any other martial art, how can one generalize? Everyone will bring to it what they have in terms of skill, focus and an underlying willingness to actually do something to another person. Training will differ from one Dojo to another hopefully focused on the fundamental themes and concepts. If the issue is that there are lousy Bujinkan instructors there probably are, just as there are lousy and ineffective instructors in all of the arts.

I can think of no reason I would attack someone unless I needed to defend myself, friends, dogs or family. When it comes down to that all options are open. Having lived in some pretty violent countries, served in the military and coming from an ethnic group that someone tried to wipe from the face of the earth not to long ago, and there are plenty more who would still like to do so, that is why I train and how I teach. In our Dojo we hit hard, train against resistance, do regular non scripted response drills, etc. All along with the core material and the years theme.

There are 6 billion people in the world. The math is easy. You are more likely to be fighting against a thief, murderer, drunk, mugger etc than another martial artist. I would add that democracy is fragile. This is based on a study of history and political science. That means you could end up fighting against your neighbor. Depends. So if that is the math than some choose to train to address those issues and because they enjoy the art they are training in.

This is not to say I have anything against any art. To the contrary. They all have something. What is BORING are broad based statements such as "ground fighting" is the end all. I owned a bar. Trust me when the fights occurred the last place you wanted to be was on the ground. At the same time it is important. Or X art s..ks. So how many people are in X art and are they allllllllllllllllllll bad.

The all too frequent theme is you can't prove it works or you need to stress test it. It is still not real as the other person or persons are not out to kill you. Black eyes, blown tendons, etc are not death. If testing is the issue than join up, do private security work, get a job as a LEO or go into a real bad neighborhood and tell some nasty guy to F off. If you come home and protect your buddies it works.


In case you are wondering I served, studied Hapkido in Colombia where we did kumite every class with no cup, pads or mouth gear on concrete. Add to this resisting my instructors in the Bujinkan on many occasions, unscripted, and shown how well the techniques work. At that I a 5'10", have weighed between 195 and 205 between 12 to 20% body fat, lift heavy 3 times a week, swim, bike and hike at 3.5mph with a 20lb pack 16 to 25 miles every week in the summer at over 10,000 ft. Point is I am not a couch potatoe.

Also, I always wonder about any person who says they have "seen the light". This is like someone who tells you how "self aware" they are. An oxymoron. The reality is that there is no light. Just the gray space we call life.

 

[Rook]

From what I've gathered, bare-knuckle boxers in 19th century England used to have their weight on their rear leg and arms extended towards the opponent ichimonji style, mainly for the reason that there was no judge to separate the fighters in a clinch.

Boxing stances, techniques and training were not standardized in the way they are today prior to the early 20th century. Before then, you would have seen a proliferation of different boxing stances, including the heavily backweighted (one manuel I have seen advocated 10-90) and the heavily front weighted (one manuel I have seen advocated 90-10) and pretty much everything in between. Perhaps someone more knowledgable with jump in and discuss the relative frequency of their use.

The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.

To whom is this invitation extended?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

To whom is this invitation extended?

The way I understand it, pretty much anyone.

 

[Rook]

The way I understand it, pretty much anyone.

Let me make sure I am reading this correctly. Hatsumi is available to be challenged by anyone? If I were to create an account on bullshido and try to see if we could get a low-level pro to fight him, Hatsumi would be open to the fight taking place?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I never said he'd take somebody up on a challenge. What I'm saying is that he's told people at Taikai etc. several times that they're free to take a shot at him whenever they want.

 

[Rook]

I never said he'd take somebody up on a challenge. What I'm saying is that he's told people at Taikai etc. several times that they're free to take a shot at him whenever they want.

Ok. Who is permitted to attend these Taikais and is this invitation extended as a matter of course or only on one or two occasions in the past?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

There aren't any Taikais or large seminar with Hatsumi or Shihan attending outside Japan anymore.

 

[Rook]

There aren't any Taikais or large seminar with Hatsumi or Shihan attending outside Japan anymore.

You told Makoto Dojo

The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.

in your post from 8:40. Where would Makoto Dojo or anyone else to whom the invitation is extended have the opportunity to do so freely today if desired?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Japan. Duh.

However, you have to be a Bujinkan member to attend training in Hombu or Ayase. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't rush in trying to pick a fight anyway, though I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Cryozombie]

However, you have to be a Bujinkan member to attend training in Hombu or Ayase.

Well, thats not hard, membership is cheap... and I only bring this up so the excuse that people can't really do it because they have to be Bujinkan doesn't come up as the cop out...