Chris, im trying to reconcile the notion of training on unrealistic attacks. Its apparent that it works, based on all the stories I have heard from other BBT members and my sensei regarding people who have used it to defend them selves in real situations.. Im just still trying to figure out how? Case in point catching a punch and into a wrist lock takedown. Aikido gets picked on for this, and BBT has this to some extent that i have seen from the higher ups. (please reference my PM)
Hmm. First things first, there is no "catching a punch" in any kata in any of the Ryu-ha that inform the methods of the Bujinkan. At all. None. Anyone who teaches/shows such a thing has not drawn it from the Ryu. A particular teacher might show something like it as an expression of an idealised response/principle, but it's not actually in any of the kata. Next, we might be talking about different things when we talk about "unrealistic attacks"... I'll cover that in a bit. As far as the stories... that can get incredibly subjective, honestly. To some people "I pulled off a Shuto Ken" is the art "working".... to others, it's just a lucky hit. Personally, I look deeper, beyond what the technique that "worked" is, and look to why things "worked"... which could minimise those stories quite a bit (not just in Bujinkan, but in all martial arts, honestly). I've had students have what I teach them "work" in real encounters... as have I... and each time I've broken down with them afterwards what actually happened, and what was from what they've been taught, as well as what was from other influences.
Oh, and got your PM... I'll hopefully get a reply together soon.
I get my issue is, I am still thinking of a fight with a trained mma fighter. Your not going to catch a jab, its never going to happen. However, i don't really think people jab on the street. Not in the videos of street fights i have seen. Maybe a cross as its got a different energy and is more committed.
Depends on the fight, really... I've had people use jabs against me in real fights. But the thing they aren't is a cage fight with an MMA guy... on a large number of levels, completely removed from the physical reality.
It apparently works, and i need to figure out how. The only way to do that is more training.
Does it? Hmm...
I'll clarify. The techniques are nothing. Any mechanically sound technique can work. And lots and lots of arts have plenty of mechanically sound techniques, the Bujinkan being absolutely no exception to that. What makes it actually, genuinely "work", though, is the training methodology. A sword cuts... but just getting a sword to cut doesn't make you a swordsman, or mean you can fight with a sword. Training methodology, though, can.
K man Can you chime in on the Aikido punch catching wrist lock stuff? I would love to know the hows and why of your styles reasoning on that.
I have a hunch about what it is possibly about, but I cant verify it till later in my training.
Couple of things... is the attack actually a punch? Is it really being "caught"? And is it really a "lock"? You might find the answer is no to each of those...
That was a good clip. I loved that deflection he used. I wonder if it exists in BBT? What is it called?
Not the way it's done there, no. Of course, I'm just talking about the formal material... as with the "catch a punch" thing, if a particular instructor saw it, liked it, and decided to add it to his expression and teaching, that's one thing... but it's not formally part of anything in our arts. There are some similar things in Koto and Gyokko Ryu, in Koto as a variation on Kyogi, and in Gyokko in an expression of Un Jaku, but it's quite different. The similarities are that the Tori's hand trails after the attacking arm, but that's about it. It'd be referred to as Harai Uke (sweeping receive).
The bogus thing about this stuff is that a person is not always going nicely roll forward.
Ha, yeah.... Love it when they don't "nicely roll forward".... it usually means they end up crumpled, in our approach, typically after landing on their head... with broken wrists/elbows on the way down. Rolling is to safely take the technique. I don't want someone rolling out of the way nicely when I do it for real....
Well, that's your opinion, I guess. I'm sure you think the world of your art, but applying the knowledge gained honestly depends on each individual, and certainly even more so on the instructor's skill level. Considering that my sensei is one of Sensei Neil Stolsmark's senior students, I have no need to consider your opinion and can be assured that I am in the right place. Thank you for your concern.
Maybe I was misunderstood.
I was saying that Shorin Ryu is a great system. It is strong, powerful, direct, no-nonsense, and a personal favourite of mine (along with Goju Ryu and Wado Ryu... who are probably my favourite due to their Jujutsu connection). However I was cautioning against swallowing rhetoric as fact, especially when it's overdone, ill-advised, and doesn't match the actual reality of what's being presented. There's nothing wrong with Shorin Ryu... quite the opposite... it's a fantastic Traditional Karate system!... and I'm thrilled that you've found a good school for it. But "brutal"? Nope. Solid? Yes. Strong? You bet. Brutal? No more than many other arts, and less than quite a few I could mention. It's also got very little in common with anything "street style", once you learn to look at it properly and objectively.
There was no concern over your school. I have no doubt that it's a great one, and you're certainly in the right place. Just remember to be objective and realistic about what it is... that's all.
The 'unrealistic' attacks are either an attack that has been deliberately slowed to practise the technique or one that is not being done properly. Unfortunately in the videos you see and probably in many dojos it is the latter. All techniques rely on a 'realistic' attack. That means hitting with intent. Again it has to be done carefully because even a committed attack slowed can cause damage.
Not quite what I was meaning when I said "unrealistic attacks". I meant that the actual structure of the attacks was not similar to a "real" attack... they are stylised representations of forms of violence and attack. A technique like Renyo, for instance, has an attack which is a right punch, followed by a right kick, then a right grab to the lapel. That's an unrealistic sequence, really. But that's fine... it's meant to be. It's teaching distancing concepts (changing and flowing between ranges) by moving from a striking range to a kicking distance, then closing in to a grappling one. There are, of course, other lessons involved (such as handling an opponent responding by trying to escape a joint lock and so on), but it's just not meant to be a realistic sequence. Many Kukishinden Ryu kata involve a long string of attacks (right punch, left punch, right kick, left kick, right punch... or right punch, left punch, right kick, right punch.... or right punch, left punch, right punch, left kick... and so on), which teach a method of moving evasively, handling a constant attack, disrupting rhythms, picking your timing, staying in control of your distance etc, but again, it just ain't what would ever be actually encountered. It's not a realistic attack.
That said, it doesn't mean that the attacks aren't done "realistically" (in terms of targeting, power, intent etc). They absolutely are. In fact, I don't think the techniques work properly unless it's a proper attack in that sense. Attacks are done tight, precise, guarded, balanced, and so forth (at least... they're meant to be...). It's only in demonstrations that show each "part" of the action, and in the very, very early stage of learning any particular kata that there should ever be an arm "just left out there", or the attacking side should be just waiting for the defender's movements. There is, of course, some variation, as well as some alternate reasons for some of what is seen (the punches aren't actually punches....), but that's taking us further away, and will only complicate things.
But why do so many Videos feature wrist catching then? Here is another example of unrealistic attacks..
Notice how each time he just hangs his arm there to be captured? THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN A REAL ATTACK OR FIGHT. NO one, not even untrained do that. So why then, does BBT and Aikido train off of that kind of attack?
Gonna send that to you in your PM... to be frank, I'm not sure how many actually know what it's done the way it is... but, for now, I'm going to make a suggestion. What the AKBAN guys do isn't really what is done in Budo Taijutsu, nor is it what is seen in the Ryu-ha (when it comes to things like their "how to apply x in sparring" clips). That particular one has more of an Aikido influence in the footwork (there's no Aikido in what we do), as well as some boxing (in the attack), and really isn't that related to anything found in our systems. It's an attempt at what they feel is a modernisation... and shouldn't be taken as indicative of anything other than Yossi Sherrif's take on things. But why does it have the attacker leaving his arm out? Because it's a demonstration. Mind you, I feel (as you do) that this is a largely intellectual "technique"... the timing simply isn't there, due to the defender (Yossi) needing to take a number of extra steps in order to change direction from the second evasion to do a 180 and "catch" the second punch.
I did not intend to use all caps.. I was very frustrated.
Ha, not a problem.
Now to anticipate Chris Parker and the admonishment I am sure I deserve ill say this. I know these concepts work, but my mind is having a hard time letting go of the how. I'm getting the feeling that no amount of forum questioning will help me understand it. Only training and experience and time will help me understand it. I am just going to have to accept that ill be doing things I just don't understand, until one day I do. The words how and understanding are not the same. Only experience and a good instructor can unite the two.
I seem to remember telling you that a little while back...
I'm so used to training that was simple and direct, with few simple movements.(not including BJJ/no-gi) I have to find a way to stop asking questions, to turn my brain off and just accept the training and one day it will come. Are there any suggestions you guys have that can help me to put my mind at ease and stop with the incessant need to research and analyze everything I see and do(with regards to my new art) through the lenses of MMA?
While I agree with K-Man that you shouldn't ever stop asking questions, I would suggest that you exercise a bit more patience and introspection before voicing them. There is a concept in traditional Japanese martial arts that, although I've had a number of Bujinkan members dismiss it as being "cultish" (hmm...), is actually quite vital if you want to learn properly. The concept is known as Nyunanshin (or Junanshin), and refers to "a mind with the flexibility to accept new ideas" (pretty literally, actually... "Nyu/Ju",
柔 , means "flexible, or pliant", same as "Ju"jutsu, or "nyumon" [beginner]; "nan",
軟 , means "accepting, open to"; and "shin",
心 , means "mind"). It's often called the "beginners mind", and is related to concepts such as Nyumon (the initial stage).
At this point, it's the students responsibility to listen to the instructor, trust that they know the best method and correct procedure and structure for your development, that they know the art, knowing how what you're doing now fits into what you'll be doing in 5 years time. It's important that you simply follow their direction... even if you don't understand it, or it doesn't fit with what you've previously done. You're not doing what you've previously done... so don't expect it to be the same, or to necessarily fit in the same way. You've made a decision to learn a new approach... so learn it. And the way to do that is to learn from someone who already knows it... and to benefit from their experience and advice. All you need to do is take on board what is said... be able to accept it... and be flexible enough to realize that what you're doing is different... so expect different answers.
I just wanna flow like water. Crash hard and destroy or flow around the obstruction. Simplicity, efficiency and directness are important to me.
Oh, there's plenty of that in what we do... trust me....
Crash hard? Koto Ryu, or Kukishinden Ryu, as well as a fair bit of Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu. Flow around? Togakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu (pretty much a perfect description there, actually!), a lot of Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu. Simple, direct? Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin, Shinden Fudo.... with a fair smattering found in each of the other Ryu... it's just that that's pretty much the primary "flavour" of Koto etc.... but we don't stick with just one "elemental" approach.... (not Hayes' stuff here, but more an observation on an overall take....).