Does this happen in this day and age?

[Tez3]

I think people are making very valid points about this being a test and more a test of spirit and heart than anything else. But I would still argue and maintain that this type of sparring and experience does teach something. At the end of the day it is pressure testing. Look at how crisp and perfect his techniques are when he is doing his katas and bunkai. Then look at what happens when he meets a fully resistant opponent. There is a hell of a lot of grabbing and tusselling. The instructors need to see how the student adapts his technique and training to a little bit of chaos. The guy did so well, there was no showboating or posturing he just got down to business and you could see the level of the mans skill when he managed to fly out a kick from nowhere whilst under pressure and the dynamics of his punches when he was using the non punching arm to pull the opponent on to his punch. I imagine that the man is able to do this because he has been taught how to do this. This type of full on traditional sparring teaches people how to use their techniques under pressure.

In your post you use the example of car manufacturing



Well I would argue that a great deal of pressure testing goes into making cars safer. Have you seen the crash test dummies been driven at full speed into a wall? It is a way of pressure testing the car's impact bars, seatbelts, airbag etc. I would not want to get into a car that the manufacturers had not used pressure testing at some stage in the design phase.

Absolutely spot on!! many people have the idea their perfectly honed techniques are going to work on the street and their fight will look as pristine as a Jet Li film fight, it doesn't work that way though. Fights look untidy. People tussle and brawl even the best MA will, the trick as this guy showed is to be able to pull off your techniques regardless.

 

[myusername]

That was my point. they are dummies.. not human beings

I'm sorry but I honestly can not see how this can be the same point...

To me its like saying that someone can't truly know how to design a car to be safe from crashes, without actually having been in a horrible car crash. They do it all the time

I may have read it wrong but I'm seeing your point as being, the guy designing safety features for a car does not need to have been in a car crash to do that job? And you are comparing this to the video to make the argument that the karate student does not need to be in an actual fight to be able to fight? Am I right?

If I am right then the point I was trying to make in answer, but may not have been very clear, is that using your same analogy, the designer of the car may not need to be in an actual car crash to do his job but he should certainly pressure test his design under conditions as close to an actual car crash as he can to ensure that it works. Otherwise it is all just theory. Just as the Karate student needs to pressure test his technique under fully resistant conditions to ensure that they work. Otherwise it is all just theory. The sparring in that video is pressure testing.

 

[Sylo]

I'm sorry but I honestly can not see how this can be the same point...



I may have read it wrong but I'm seeing your point as being, the guy designing safety features for a car does not need to have been in a car crash to do that job? And you are comparing this to the video to make the argument that the karate student does not need to be in an actual fight to be able to fight? Am I right?

If I am right then the point I was trying to make in answer, but may not have been very clear, is that using your same analogy, the designer of the car may not need to be in an actual car crash to do his job but he should certainly pressure test his design under conditions as close to an actual car crash as he can to ensure that it works. Otherwise it is all just theory. Just as the Karate student needs to pressure test his technique under fully resistant conditions to ensure that they work. Otherwise it is all just theory. The sparring in that video is pressure testing.

I'm still firm on my stand that I will not fight someone with the intent on injuring them, unless my life is at stake and I have every intention of ending theres. I am taught to end the fight, not to see how long I can last. This video proves nothing for me. I can get just as exhausted running around in circles for 3 hrs. If they want to test this guy. bring in a street punk and tell him to put him out of commission and time how long it takes him to do so.

I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.

We have just been taught that if we fight, its to kill. I don't see doing it any other way.

 

[BrandonLucas]

In regards to technique...

I completely agree that your technique is going to suck if you've given all you've got before you get to the sparring aspect...that's the point when you have to dig down deep, and that's how you find out how much heart you have.

And I think you may be right, Tez, that we're not seeing the full test to be able to see exactly why his fights looked the way they did.

But, my point is that he still had enough energy to throw haymakers and try to connect right hand powerpunches aimed at the jaw numerous times throughout most fights...it seemed more like he was an average guy in a bar fight than a trained blackbelt trying to end the fight quickly. Now, there were some times that looked like he was doing pretty well...he seemed in control at certain points...but he didn't appear to be in control throughout the fights.

To me, that's the name of the game. If you can control the direction of the fight, then you've already won. He didn't seem to be doing that...rather, he seemed at times to be fighting from desperation...and I understand that was from being exhausted.

I don't know...I mean, when I sparred for my 1st dan testing, I sparred 2 guys that were bigger than me seperately for 3 minutes rounds, and then I sparred 2 guys that were the same size as me at the same time for 3 minutes...and they were all the same rank or higher...and we at least wore headgear and mouthguards. And we sparred hard...at least as hard as they were sparring on that video. I was plenty tired by the time we were through, but when we sparred, it didn't look like that video did...granted, we weren't trying to simulate fighting, either.

And something else...I'm at work, and can't hear the audio, but I understand that there was strong language involved...something else I disapprove of. I know that they were all adults in the building, but it's a respect thing, and foul language shouldn't have a place in any dojo/dojang.

 

[Tez3]

I'm still firm on my stand that I will not fight someone with the intent on injuring them, unless my life is at stake and I have every intention of ending theres. I am taught to end the fight, not to see how long I can last. This video proves nothing for me. I can get just as exhausted running around in circles for 3 hrs. If they want to test this guy. bring in a street punk and tell him to put him out of commission and time how long it takes him to do so.

I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.

We have just been taught that if we fight, its to kill. I don't see doing it any other way.

Kill? thats being over dramatic.

And who had a cracked shin? I've not seen a cracked shin even in the many full contact MMA fights I've watched over the years.

Being taught to end a fight is fine supposing you are fighting someone who cannot fight, isn't a skilled as you nor as fit. What if you are facing an opponent/attacker who is fit, powerful and has techniques at least as good as yours, or you are facing someone high on drugs who feels no pain and seems to be fitted with the duracell bunny batteries who will take every strike and shrug it off? The ones the police taze, rubber bullet etc and still stand there. Not all fights have the luxury of ending in a few seconds. What if you've just finishes a long days work, been training and been up all night with a crying baby and then you are attacked? Or you have the flu/cold/virus?

Pressure training works, if I'm in trouble I'd be happy to have this guy watching my back, I don't want someone who's dojo techniques and spirit haven't been tested.

 

[Sylo]

Kill? thats being over dramatic.

And who had a cracked shin? I've not seen a cracked shin even in the many full contact MMA fights I've watched over the years.

Being taught to end a fight is fine supposing you are fighting someone who cannot fight, isn't a skilled as you nor as fit. What if you are facing an opponent/attacker who is fit, powerful and has techniques at least as good as yours, or you are facing someone high on drugs who feels no pain and seems to be fitted with the duracell bunny batteries who will take every strike and shrug it off? The ones the police taze, rubber bullet etc and still stand there. Not all fights have the luxury of ending in a few seconds. What if you've just finishes a long days work, been training and been up all night with a crying baby and then you are attacked? Or you have the flu/cold/virus?

Pressure training works, if I'm in trouble I'd be happy to have this guy watching my back, I don't want someone who's dojo techniques and spirit haven't been tested.

Yeah your right "kill" is a little strong. I don't disagree with "testing" ones heart and spirit. But I don't need to knock someones teeth out to do that. Thats what I keep stressing. If you want to do that, its fine and I have no issue with that. But I won't be doing it, and I won't feel like any less of a martial artist just because I refuse to purposely hurt someone else.

 

[Gordon Nore]

As Brandon points out above, we've not seen the whole test, so it's hard to guage. I personally like the kumite -- although I would be padded from head to toe -- but it is way beyond me. If I took that grading when I took mine, at 46, I would not have passed. This seems to me to be a school that serves younger, more rough-and-ready folks.

Would have been nice to see more kata and demonstration of technique to get a better feel, but this is a greatest hits reel.

 

[myusername]

I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.

I'm finding this debate really interesting as it goes to show how differently people can percieve the same piece of footage. We have obviously arrived at two completely different opinions. I personally feel that the sparring was hard but safe, bar a few bloody noses and bruises as far as I could see no one got seriously hurt. It served it's purpose of testing the student's spirit and also his techniques against a variety of different attackers using full resistance.

Can you honestly not see the benefits of this type of pressure testing? What other ways are there that would test the same thing as effectively?

 

[dancingalone]

I really do understand what you guys are saying. I just don't see the need for it in the year 2009. There are plenty of ways to come to the same result as what this guy did, without him having a cracked shin the next day.

In your opinion, how do you train toughness and reaction under extreme pressure without being exposed to some pain and fear under fatiguing conditions?

 

[Sylo]

In your opinion, how do you train toughness and reaction under extreme pressure without being exposed to some pain and fear under fatiguing conditions?

Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.

As brandon explained..

at our 1st dan tests..

we will be subject to spar 1 on 1 with semi to heavy contact, then we will spar 2 on 1, and then possibly 3 on 1. 3 minute rounds of each, maybe multiple rounds. I will be moving, and executing the entire time. I will be just as tired as this guy is, and I will have pushed myself just as far as this guy did. But, I will have lessened the risk of leaving with any broken bones. I think you guys think I am afraid of pain, and don't want it to "hurt". Thats far from the truth. It should hurt, but It should still be safe. Getting hit with a haymaker to the jaw at pretty good force, doesn't seem all that safe to me. I have enough issues, don't want wires in my face. I'd rather exert all my force with gear, than pull my moves because we aren't wearing anything to keep me from seriously injuring myself or them.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah your right "kill" is a little strong. I don't disagree with "testing" ones heart and spirit. But I don't need to knock someones teeth out to do that. Thats what I keep stressing. If you want to do that, its fine and I have no issue with that. But I won't be doing it, and I won't feel like any less of a martial artist just because I refuse to purposely hurt someone else.

My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
It was quite mild stuff really.
He didn't do this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kbv7T1LMGyg&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3KS6nOKFw&feature=related


A good watch actually lol!

 

[Sylo]

I'm finding this debate really interesting as it goes to show how differently people can percieve the same piece of footage. We have obviously arrived at two completely different opinions. I personally feel that the sparring was hard but safe, bar a few bloody noses and bruises as far as I could see no one got seriously hurt. It served it's purpose of testing the student's spirit and also his techniques against a variety of different attackers using full resistance.

Can you honestly not see the benefits of this type of pressure testing? What other ways are there that would test the same thing as effectively?

I can certainly see the benefits. I just see the risks as being far higher than the benefits in this case. I just feel the same result can be reached without risking injury.. thats all. It is interesting how differently people can view video footage and purvey it. I don't see this as anything other than differing analyzations of a particular subject. To me the guy looks like he's trying to hurt his fellow students. It doesn't look controlled.. it looks like wild swinging, and at one point he looks cocky because he's manhandling them.

 

[Sylo]

My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
It was quite mild stuff really.
He didn't do this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kbv7T1LMGyg&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3KS6nOKFw&feature=related


A good watch actually lol!

You guys have a better eye for control than I do.. it doesn't look controlled to me.. so maybe I'm just overseeing things.

 

[Tez3]

Fear will never be a part of a controlled class setting. I'm not ever going to be scared of someone I see 3 times a week, that I joke around with, and enjoy my class time with. I'm not going to all of a sudden become angry at this person for 3 minutes at a testing. We spar as hard as these guys are doing at my school.. but we at least wear shin guards and headgear/mouth piece. We also don't punch directly to the face. The head is fine, but not to the face. The fact that they didn't get injured doesn't change the fact that they easily could have.

As brandon explained..

at our 1st dan tests..

we will be subject to spar 1 on 1 with semi to heavy contact, then we will spar 2 on 1, and then possibly 3 on 1. 3 minute rounds of each, maybe multiple rounds. I will be moving, and executing the entire time. I will be just as tired as this guy is, and I will have pushed myself just as far as this guy did. But, I will have lessened the risk of leaving with any broken bones. I think you guys think I am afraid of pain, and don't want it to "hurt". Thats far from the truth. It should hurt, but It should still be safe. Getting hit with a haymaker to the jaw at pretty good force, doesn't seem all that safe to me. I have enough issues, don't want wires in my face. I'd rather exert all my force with gear, than pull my moves because we aren't wearing anything to keep me from seriously injuring myself or them.

We don't know that the people he sparred with were fellow students of his. Many organisations have several clubs/schools grading together. As I explained before headguards don't save you from brain injury.

I passed my BB test at 49, a female against all male students who didn't go easy on me, they were all sizes and ranged from pro MMA fighters to heavyweight karateka. I've been punched in the face but if you are it's your fault lol! Block, duck or whatever your style teaches you to do. If it doesn't a punch in the face teaches you PDQ!

All places I have trained at train safely, we don't kill each other in training!!

 

[Tez3]

You guys have a better eye for control than I do.. it doesn't look controlled to me.. so maybe I'm just overseeing things.

I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.

 

[Sylo]

I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.

I stand corrected.

you don't happen to have video of your BB testing do you?

I'd be interested to see.

 

[BrandonLucas]

My point is that the video didn't show full contact fighting, it was semi contact, they weren't knocking each others teeth out nor were they KOing each other. If it had been I would have agreed with you, there no teeth were missing, no noses broken, no shins bust, a bit of exhaustion thats all. Full contact would have been so much harder.
It was quite mild stuff really.
He didn't do this...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ekaP_EO1I&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kbv7T1LMGyg&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3KS6nOKFw&feature=related


A good watch actually lol!

First of all, I want you people to know that you're going to get me fired trying to watch all of these videos at work...and I'm blaming all of you who post them...lol.

But seriously...those videos of knockouts look closer to how we spar in class...those competitors didn't look like they were brawling.

Now, if the person testing had to fight 10 different people in the same fashion as those videos, then yeah, I can see how that would be effective...but what I'm saying is that the way the sparring looked during that testing, there didn't appear to be any clear rules...(I still can't hear audio, so I don't know if the rules were explained verbally or not). It appeared to be something very much akin to a streetfight.

Whether or not they were going full force, 70%, 30%, or whatever, it still looked sloppy and unimpressive, as well as fairly uneffective.

I understand the point that a typical fight isn't going to be against someone else who is trained, but even if it is, the fight should be controlled by the person who is better trained, which in this case should be the person testing for blackbelt.

If he is expected to be judged on how much heart he has, why not just require him to defend, and make it illegal for him to attack? To me, that would be much more effective than see him swinging for the fences against every person he spars or fights.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I ref MMA fights and yes that is controlled, the fact there were no injuries isn't by accident, it's by control.

I saw this, and I wanted to add in that when I'm saying that the person testing for blackbelt should have controlled the fight, I'm not referring to the fact that noone was seriously injured and that they were controlling how much power they used...rather, I'm referring to the fact that he didn't control his opponents...i.e., the pace and direction of each fight was not dictated by him.

 

[Tez3]

I stand corrected.

you don't happen to have video of your BB testing do you?

I'd be interested to see.

We don't video gradings, I can show you a photo of my front tooth which is now a crown that has to stay stuck in with superglue as the dentist won't fix it until I stop martial arts!! yep it got knocked out, the real tooth went the same way.
My grading took all day, in the morning and afternnon I had to go through all my katas and line work many times. In the evening I had to do them all again with the two childrens classes then in the adults class I had to do the warm up then the self defence techniques we do then roll with the guys on the floor then stand up sparring. It wasn't full contact as far as they were concerned but I got to go for it full out. I was fitter then but was still absolutely chin strapped when I'd finished, I didn't even have the strength to take my belt. My previous club had been one where you more or less paid for you belts so I never knew whether I'd earned them. My present instructor devised a black belt test that would prove to me ( no one else really ) that I earned it. In August next year after nearly six years I'm going for my 2nd Dan, I have to up my fitness big style but am determined no one will go easy on me because of age or gender!

I suppose I'm used to full contact fights ( we have our own promotion here) and watching fighting so the video didn't seem to be very full on. I wouldn't say when you are fighting you are so much trying to hurt someone as trying to outwit them and win. It's physical chess, the fun is in out manoevering them not hurting them. Injuries in MMA fights are rarely serious, cuts, bruises etc. the odd serious injury is rare enough to make the news and seems shocking.

 

[Tez3]

I saw this, and I wanted to add in that when I'm saying that the person testing for blackbelt should have controlled the fight, I'm not referring to the fact that noone was seriously injured and that they were controlling how much power they used...rather, I'm referring to the fact that he didn't control his opponents...i.e., the pace and direction of each fight was not dictated by him.

I'm guessing the point of videoing the grading was so they can go over this and correct what they think was wrong. I wonder if those he was sparring were also grading?