ATC
Senior Master
So you do agree with me. You can only train and no training is for real. Exactly! So I don't get your point. Your two posts contradict each other. Unless what you state above is not being sarcastic.
Does Competing Hurt Your Training?
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
I think competition keeps you honest about your skill level as well as giving you areas to improve your art, regardless of what your art is. Without challenging yourself in SOME way, you're resting on your laurels in my opinion.
You CAN train 'real' self-defense, situational awareness, drill self-defense drills etc etc. AND, still spar against a resisting opponent. One does not preclude the other. I think Steve clearly illustrated some of the best benefits of live competition with regards to conditioning, learning 'gaps', and more. Also timing.
Honestly, I don't think everyone has to compete. Some people aren't physically or mentally able to deal with the rigors upon their bodies and ego. This doesn't detract from them as a person in any way, we aren't all able to do that. But, if you take someone like myself, with 25 years of training, who regularly competes in varying levels of contact and types of combat, who is quite used to conflict of different types.... vs someone who has 25 years of training, but never competes, doesn't have to manage his diet or conditioning, is getting more round than tall etc etc... All I'm saying is you get out, what you put in, why wouldn't you put in as much as you could?
I'm not saying people have to compete, it's not for everyone. But, those who do compete will have advantages in an actual conflict purely due to the physical and mental conditioning that goes along with that kind of training.
You CAN train 'real' self-defense, situational awareness, drill self-defense drills etc etc. AND, still spar against a resisting opponent. One does not preclude the other. I think Steve clearly illustrated some of the best benefits of live competition with regards to conditioning, learning 'gaps', and more. Also timing.
Honestly, I don't think everyone has to compete. Some people aren't physically or mentally able to deal with the rigors upon their bodies and ego. This doesn't detract from them as a person in any way, we aren't all able to do that. But, if you take someone like myself, with 25 years of training, who regularly competes in varying levels of contact and types of combat, who is quite used to conflict of different types.... vs someone who has 25 years of training, but never competes, doesn't have to manage his diet or conditioning, is getting more round than tall etc etc... All I'm saying is you get out, what you put in, why wouldn't you put in as much as you could?
I'm not saying people have to compete, it's not for everyone. But, those who do compete will have advantages in an actual conflict purely due to the physical and mental conditioning that goes along with that kind of training.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, NO offense and not trying to be "sarcastic" ...I do have a hard time explaining myself many times....
...main point is? the way you train...will be the way you will react...
Thank-you for pointing out many discrepancies.....Aloha,
PS: Just started reading a New book we received: "Surviving Arm Assaults" ...has great stuffs and explains this more too!
( A must read book!!) still in the first sections so far...hard to put down...
ATC
Senior Master
Yes this is why we train. To develop muscle memory and reflexes to perform a task under pressure with minimal thought. So if anyone is training without contact then they are not training. This is why we hit pads, bag, and other people in full contact sports competitions. This is why you need to compete. Only though competition will you develop timing, distance management, and body hardening conditioning to be able to use your art in a real SD situation.
You can practice over and over and over a million time something. But once confronted with the real thing you better hope that the real thing comes at you just like you practiced. If not then bye bye you. This is what competing does. It has you using techniques from a multitude of angles, distances, and timings. You can't simpley practice that. You need to do it and the only way to do it and do it safely with minimal injuries to you and your opponent with the most realistic situation as possible is to compete and compete a lot. With all different kinds of people. This way you get as many variable of attacks as possible. There really is no other way. That is why sport combat was invented. To practice your art as real as possible without being real.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, ATC ...This book will give you great addtional infomations on the way you train! ...Worth reading!
...many years ago, We work with these two guys from a low income housing area...
...this is how they fight base on there past experience (NO MA training-just streets fighting) ..alway figth smaller guys or false crack first...keep hitting even when they say " I give up" ...why past experiences have shown them this "TECHNIQUE" of giving up gives the other guy time to recover and "BEAT YOUR ***"...ususlly they keep hitting till you are NOT moving...there style of street fighing...prepare for these guys?
Will you stop hitting? because the way you train or believe it ended? be caution here?
If someone "Tap's out? ...will your training make you "stop" ! ...automatic....
If someones signals stop? ...will you have time to recover if this is a deploy to recover and bite your butt?
The way you train? ...will be the way you fight.....Be prepared
Most fights ends up the other guy will have a knife or weapons (30%-of the time- read the book...) ....most knives will not be seen until you see your blood and feel the cuts and stabs, afterwards too...Are you prepare?
and do you train to always be alert for this unseen weapons when you train "EVER TIME" ...pretending your parters will pull a knife unseen on you? ..every moment? ...class rooms and and classmates...enviroments is different from the REAL STREETS and unknowns of aggressors" intentions...
Do you train in dark areas, with the "Adrenline dump"? ..the mind becames less open too...READ the book!
Aloha, ...the way you train...can get you injury or "Kill" ...also mention in book...NO way to train for ever thing too...
PS: Funny thing here? ...the more you learn? ..less you know.. Martial arts training is the dark void of endless learning and training....endless..
Rather go fishing....fishing is endless....catching will have limits and ending.....funny thing here? ....the more you fish? ..the more you will catch...( is there an ending?)
...many years ago, We work with these two guys from a low income housing area...
...this is how they fight base on there past experience (NO MA training-just streets fighting) ..alway figth smaller guys or false crack first...keep hitting even when they say " I give up" ...why past experiences have shown them this "TECHNIQUE" of giving up gives the other guy time to recover and "BEAT YOUR ***"...ususlly they keep hitting till you are NOT moving...there style of street fighing...prepare for these guys?
Will you stop hitting? because the way you train or believe it ended? be caution here?
If someone "Tap's out? ...will your training make you "stop" ! ...automatic....
If someones signals stop? ...will you have time to recover if this is a deploy to recover and bite your butt?
The way you train? ...will be the way you fight.....Be prepared
Most fights ends up the other guy will have a knife or weapons (30%-of the time- read the book...) ....most knives will not be seen until you see your blood and feel the cuts and stabs, afterwards too...Are you prepare?
and do you train to always be alert for this unseen weapons when you train "EVER TIME" ...pretending your parters will pull a knife unseen on you? ..every moment? ...class rooms and and classmates...enviroments is different from the REAL STREETS and unknowns of aggressors" intentions...
Do you train in dark areas, with the "Adrenline dump"? ..the mind becames less open too...READ the book!
Aloha, ...the way you train...can get you injury or "Kill" ...also mention in book...NO way to train for ever thing too...
PS: Funny thing here? ...the more you learn? ..less you know.. Martial arts training is the dark void of endless learning and training....endless..
Rather go fishing....fishing is endless....catching will have limits and ending.....funny thing here? ....the more you fish? ..the more you will catch...( is there an ending?)
But are you saying that competing is the only way to achieve these results? IMHO, I think that while competing does give you the things that you mention, there are things that you can do during self defense/scenario training, that you can't do during competition. Now, before anyone starts talking about 'the deadly' strikes, no that is not what I'm talking about, although that does come into the mix. I'm talking about locks, chokes, weapons, things like that. Of course, depending on the type of competition, those things may be there already. For ex: I doubt your average TKD comp, involves takedowns, and chokes. Those are present in MMA training, but then again, is spending time looking for that sub. what you really want to do?
When I train my techs. of course, I'll do the set required Kenpo techs. for each belt level. I do this to constantly re-enforce them, especially for teaching. However, I'll also work spontaneous drills, where I have no idea how the other person is going to attack. It could be a punch, a grab, choke, takedown, anything. I'm not thinking of doing a preset tech., but instead, dealing with whats happening at that moment. It will vary with each attack, and IMO, that keeps you on your toes.
No amount of training in the dojo/gym or competition is like doing it for real. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally they are worlds apart.
If the closest you come to real-time fight has been playing with techniques in the dojo, then I would guess it might help you sort some things out to go harder in a competition format. It still wont really show you how you will respond though, or what its like.
In terms of help or hurt your training, I guess it depends on the end goal of your training, really.
A lot of this is like shotgun vs rifle. You can be a jack of all trades or king of one...
If the closest you come to real-time fight has been playing with techniques in the dojo, then I would guess it might help you sort some things out to go harder in a competition format. It still wont really show you how you will respond though, or what its like.
In terms of help or hurt your training, I guess it depends on the end goal of your training, really.
A lot of this is like shotgun vs rifle. You can be a jack of all trades or king of one...
ATC
Senior Master
Yep you are correct. You need to practice those techniques that are not in your sport. TKD has many lock, chokes and takedowns. We practice them all. My jaw is just getting back to normal after a day at the dojang practicing this one particular jaw pressure point take down, nasty stuff. When our Subunim demonstrated the technique (before showing us what it was) the guy that he had attack him was bigger and had no idea what was coming. He just attacked like someone on the street work and man he got smash down right on his face, looked really painful.But are you saying that competing is the only way to achieve these results? IMHO, I think that while competing does give you the things that you mention, there are things that you can do during self defense/scenario training, that you can't do during competition. Now, before anyone starts talking about 'the deadly' strikes, no that is not what I'm talking about, although that does come into the mix. I'm talking about locks, chokes, weapons, things like that. Of course, depending on the type of competition, those things may be there already. For ex: I doubt your average TKD comp, involves takedowns, and chokes. Those are present in MMA training, but then again, is spending time looking for that sub. what you really want to do?
When I train my techs. of course, I'll do the set required Kenpo techs. for each belt level. I do this to constantly re-enforce them, especially for teaching. However, I'll also work spontaneous drills, where I have no idea how the other person is going to attack. It could be a punch, a grab, choke, takedown, anything. I'm not thinking of doing a preset tech., but instead, dealing with whats happening at that moment. It will vary with each attack, and IMO, that keeps you on your toes.
When we all broke to practice this technique, I can tell you all the sport fighters that were in class could execute better and take the punishment better. This is an all BB class but some also do the sport and some don't at all. All the ones that don't do the sport and have only this class for hard training with hard take downs and hard attacks all seemed like wusses. They all stopped their attacks and they all asked you to come at them slowly, and really did not do all that well. You could tell if you came at them hard they would not be able to really pull off the defense. Yes the sport guys at first had their issues but it was with timing the defense at real speed. The sport guys don't mind getting hit. They don't mind hitting. They don't mind the throws and take downs, giving or receiving. But the ones that don't compete at all, all seem to be a little soft if you know what I mean.
Now this may not be the case for everyone, but it is more the norm than the exception.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Honestly, I find that percentage to be preposterous. 30% of fights with a knife? Our newspapers and news would be littered with reports of stabbings and attempted murder.
While I do think training self-defense vs weapons is a GREAT idea (and have done so for many years), I don't think again that it precludes training 'fighting' in a more life-like situation, aka competition. There are some tournaments with combative weapons competition, that is where I'd work on those instincts as well.
I just find that if you do NOT push yourself in your training, you're short-changing yourself and possibly your life or those you care about.
Again, that doesn't _require_ competition, I've just found that competition can be the closest thing to a real conflict without serious injury or death. Obviously, this may vary greatly if your tournaments are 'stop/go' style points of course, those I think while still help distance and timing, can set you up for serious problems when you stop after tagging the real life aggressor. It depends on the KIND of competition.
ATC
Senior Master
Well I can tell you that I use to be a pizza manager about 20 years ago in LA California. I was robbed at gun point 7 times, knife point twice, and in many many fights during my life. During those times I have cooperated with and confronted my fair share. The times that I have confronted I have placed a few in the hospital. There was no tap out. Even when they tried to stop or give up screaming in pain there was no stop until they did not move. I was fired from my job once for stopping a robbery by beating the guy to a bloody pulp. I grew up fighting. That's what we did during my time. Now they just shoot you.
But in the dojang I have never done any of what I have done in a real situation. The worst I have done was to bloody a nose once or twice. In competition or the ring, my goal was to always knock my opponent out if I could, or hurt him to the point where he gave up.
I can only speak from my own experiences and what I see around me, and I am telling you that I can switch between needing to save my life and competing in the ring with no problems. Those that can't to me are just not smart or don't have enough experiences maybe, but it is not that hard to do for me.
The thing is that there are enough people in the world that you will find that some can and some cannot, either way that does not mean that it is not possible to do both. Just because one canÂ’t does not mean that all canÂ’t. It just means that those that canÂ’t will most likely not do in any situation.
blindsage
Master of Arts
Funny how Judo doesn't train you for any of this.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Judo has more realistic moves...actual throws...boxing is the same in sense to more realistic fighting...both with limits also...
The mental aspects of facing "real foes" NO matter your Martial arts styles....Most do not deal with a "mindless foes" Those determine to take your money and life...or the rapist who wants to succeed...!
..the test will always be " a bad situtions" ...to really know IF YOU CAN SURVIVE!
Still learning? .....each of us will see's things differently...
Aloha, .....many times going in many directions....in/out, up/down,side to side....forwards/backwards....at least going somewhere....?
The mental aspects of facing "real foes" NO matter your Martial arts styles....Most do not deal with a "mindless foes" Those determine to take your money and life...or the rapist who wants to succeed...!
..the test will always be " a bad situtions" ...to really know IF YOU CAN SURVIVE!
Still learning? .....each of us will see's things differently...
Aloha, .....many times going in many directions....in/out, up/down,side to side....forwards/backwards....at least going somewhere....?
No, no, I asked if they were done in competition. Sorry for any confusion.
As I said, depending on the type of competition, these things may/may not be allowed. Yes, I've seen this before. Of course, this begs the question...whos fault is that? The students? The teacher? I know that when my teacher throws a punch at me, I have 2 options....get hit or do something. I primarily train for SD, so nothing pisses me off more, than when someone is attacking me, and they do what you just described....stop their punch 3in from my face, give me a shoulder massage instead of choking me, etc. Thats hurting not only me, but them as well.
Milt G.
Purple Belt
While reading various forums, I often come upon discussions in which SD and competing come into play. One group says that anytime you engage in a sport, ie: competing, that in the long run it'll hurt you, as far as being able to defend yourself goes. The other group begs to differ and states that competing is good, that people who compete can easily seperate the 2, ie: SD and sport, that they're often better conditioned both physically and can often take a hit better than most.
Now, I do not compete. I do tip my hat to those that do. If we look at those that do compete, we do see guys that're much better conditioned. Sure, we'll see the handful of out of shape guys, but the majority are in pretty good shape. I do feel that it is possible, if trained properly, to do both and be capable of seperating the 2 when need be. Those that train just sport, well, IMO, I think that while some of what they do would be valid, I think that the other stuff could end up getting them hurt or worse.
I'll close with this....please do not turn this into a bash fest. I'm the first to admit that both sides can benefit from each other. I'm simply looking for other opinions on the subject.
Let the discussion begin!
Hello,
I do think that competition training is different then other martial arts study. While most compete to attempt to win, they do lose some practical martial application. Is that bad? Not if their focus is to compete. Competition is focusing on the sporting aspect. If that is your interest and goal, then that is the correct path to take.
While I feel there is a difference, I do feel that the studies may compliment each other. You do have to remain aware of what you are practicing and why you are practicing it. Compartmentalize, if you will. Self defense is not sport, and is not meant to be. Likewise, sport is not always self defense either.
Both are good and helpful. My preference is not competition. But that does not make it bad... Only lima beans are bad...
Thank you,
Milt G.
ATC
Senior Master
Oh sorry, No lock or take downs are not allowed in the sprot TKD ring. So no you would not get to practice those as a competitor only. But in class we do lock and take downs all the time. The competition still helps in the sense that it gives you timing and distance understaning.No, no, I asked if they were done in competition. Sorry for any confusion.
Could not agree more.
Yeah, I'm just adding technical data so people understand whay I say what I say.
But, can't competition also give you a false sense of security as well? Lets look at it in context, competition rewards you for technical ability & hardwork. A criminal assault (AKA self-defense situation) is intently focused on rewarding the winner & the winner is who gets to keep your wallet and teach. In a criminal assautl their on no rules and everything is stacled against you & it maybe a mix of psychological manipulation (mind games), psychological warfare (distracting your focus) & armed or unarmed conflict.
The manipulation is to get into the criminals "kill zone" & the manipulation is to keep you from seeing the attack coming. No, competition on earth prepares you for that and no amount of sparring will prepare you for that.
I think we need to define competition, I think of competition as competing in tournaments and similar where as sparring is an inner school event & not an interschool event. As far as that goes I agree with you.
Here is the problem, when your talking SD your not talking about MA Vs MMA or TMA Vs Sport or what have you. You are talking you versus the criminal; and most criminals a) attack those weaker then them and/or b) if the reward is worth it, stack the deck in their favor.
Your training means what in that context? Most criminals were the first to catch on to the MMA craze with the first UFC & while allot of them don't get formal training, or little formal training & those who do are well organized into paramilitary gangs. There are several "Jail House MAs" in existance...
52 Blocks: A Mix of African MA that uses knees and elbows & Western Boxing plus Greco-Roman Wrestling taught to members of the Black Guerilla Family & used by many Black Only Gangs.
Jail House Rock: A mix of various MAs with Old School Judo & Karate based Military Hand-to-Hand Combatives & small teams warfare as a base. Plus anything anyone can add to the mix as improvements. Was founded by the Aryan Brotherhood to teach self-discpline & arm their "soldiers" with fight small teams. Created because of BGFs organization and training of Black Prisoners and Gang Members under socialist ideologies.
So lets see, your going to deal with either a trained, fit (most criminals spend their time working out when locked up) & intent anti-social individual focus on the goal of taking whats yours and maybe making an example of you. Who has also prepared the battle field ahead of time. Or, a young punk trying to work his way up the totem pole. The point, is that NO TRAINING is gonna prepare you for that unless it focuses specifically on that. Believing your proven ability in context prepares you outside of that context is not logical or sound thinking.
However that said, I'll put my money on the guy who spars more so then the guy who doesn't in those conditions because it may give them a slim advantage.
What kind of mental conditioning goes into competition and how does that relate to self-defense?
Again there is a huge gap here, what way competitions do offer for "a more life-like situation?"
Whats the difference between training via sparring and the need for competition?
Only if you can prove the context of training competition reflectx anything in real life more then simple sparring.
How well have you looked?
Jim Wagner Conflict Scenario Training
PoliceOne.com Replication training, the next generation of scenario-based training
Sombo Self-Defense: Scenario Training
Quite honestly, sparring based scenario training is very common in RBSD and proven by experts in psychology, sociology & military/LEO training planners. Competitions lack those and do not even attempt to be based on real world SD challenges (I'd love to see one that did) but it won't happen. Much like the "90% of all fights go to the ground" line, saying competition is as real as it gets is just advertising turned blamket ideology.
I think competition can be good for everyone, but I don't think it relates well in self-defense. Course I also think allot of SD training is based on self-defense fantasy as well.
You're right...it depends on the kind of competition. Would you say the UFC prepares one for a real conflict?
zDom
Senior Master
My thoughts/opinions are:
(and this is something I've given a LOT of thought to since the first day I put on a martial art uniform 20 years ago ...)
it really depends on your goals and focus.
My goal has always been to prepare myself for self defense. Period.
For me, every type of competition I've tried has always been about:
testing in a pressure situation one aspect of physical confrontations.
So "winning" any competition is always secondary to preparing myself for hand-to-hand combat.
A few examples:
• Competing in form/poomsee, I am testing whether I can execute precise, effective technique and body movement while nervous and in a situation where there are no "stop and do-overs".
If I find out, for example, that the judges are looking for extraordinarily long stances? (Shrug) too bad. Stances that are TOO long are not effective for fighting. Guess I'll just take the hit in my scores.
If I find out that judges will dock my scores for using anything but short walking stances? (Shrug) too bad. Deep stances are sometimes needed for stability. Guess I'll just take the hit in my scores.
Judges can tell me if I get a trophy or not, but me "winning" or not is all in MY mind: Did I perform WELL (win!), or did I flub under pressure? (lose..)
• Competing in point-style sparring, I am testing whether I bridge the gap and get my full-speed, full-power strikes EXACTLY where I want them (i.e., with ONLY as much contact as is allowed) while simultaneously avoiding and/or blocking incoming strikes.
After all, sometimes getting hit in the first contact can END a self defense situation badly – what if it were a lucky knockout strike? A knife? A stun gun?
But I am going in with combinations and won't be stopping until there is a break called. No kamikaze quick-touch for the point win attempts. That may win point matches but loses in self defense.
• Competing in WTF/Olympic style: I am punching them — HARD since it is a full contact sport. I don't care if it gets me points or not. I don't rub my chest againt my competitor until the ref breaks us to kicking range. I don't CARE what is good tactics for getting the most points. What matters is, can I keep from getting knocked out? Can I hit them hard — and maybe even knock them out?
In a nutshell, I am conforming to the rules of any given competition but I WILL NOT "game the game" just to win because it isn't worth the bad habits training those strategies may reinforce. I will fight as close as I can to real combat while staying within the rules.
Sure, something like UFC or other mixed martial arts may allow me to DO more, to train more aspects in a single event, but I've got to keep the overall picture in mind:
No matter how good I am, there is a significant chance that I could (even if I "win"!) receive an injury that would render me vulnerable for a few days, a few weeks — maybe even an injury that would keep me from training for years or the rest of my life!
I train martial arts to keep from getting beat up. Climbing into a MMA cage is a good way to get beat on — hence, counter to my goals and objectives of training.
Not to mention, I don't want to HURT people for entertainment. I'm not saying my techniques are "too deadly for the cage." But I have a pretty good punch, some pretty good kicks. Chances are, somebody could get hurt badly.
If modern medicine could go ZAP and make us all better immediately after the fight? Heck ya, it would be interesting and maybe even fun (knowing my opponent will not sustain serious injuries that affect his life).
So to sum it up, yea: you fight as you train. If you are spending significant time training specifically to win under a specific rule set and ignoring the "what ifs" of similar instances outside that ruleset, you could be training into yourself some less than desireable habits.
But if you keep focused on "Am I doing this just to win under this ruleset, or is this going to be an effective strategy/technique/method OUTSIDE of this controlled environment?" then ya, there are some great things to be learned in competition.
