Do you support the "Occupy" movement?

[Carol]

A few weeks ago I met some folks involved with Occupy NH. The gathering was exactly what I expected. A requisite bunch of our (unpaid) state legislatures using their "off time" to press the flesh and gathers signatures for petitions. A requisite bunch of hopefuls trying to get on the ballot next year. And people holding signs. (God hates signs...) Admittedly, I did not stay for very long, I was on my way up to the mountains and didn't spend care to spend the day talking politics. Shortly thereafter, I read in my local paper that a woman new to NH had been arrested for pimping out a teenage girl at Occupy, she had moved up from New York and didn't exactly have a clean record if ya know what I mean. While I don't strictly fault Occupy for that...I can't help but be a wee bit concerned if the movement attracts more than just people that wanna hate "teh deadlies" corporations.

On a day trip to New York, I was walking to a telecom service provider's site in Lower Manhattan and I see what looks like pocket of OWS protesters. I see a few curiously familiar people wearing Verizon patches on their jacket, one of them yells "Hey, is that Carol?" They are two guys I know from Mass -- both union techs with Verizon that were "loaned" to New York for a project. I'm not sure if their project was just to be part of OWS, or if they were there to do actual telecom work. The entire block was covered with Verizon guys...at least from what I could see. Considering they approached me with talk about how corporate greed is so horrible, I can't help but think the former is at least a possibility. The curious political junkie side of me wanted to see if more of OWS were similar voices. The claustrophobic side of me wanted to hightail it out of there so I could get to the airport in time to catch my plane back home. The claustrophobic side won.

On my way down to my friends house in Mass., I drove through Boston, making a quick diversion to South Station where I've heard that Occupy Boston was organized. The area was full of people and traffic was not worth navigating. I turned around and continued on my way. On the way home driving back through Boston, I saw a large lighted sign for a carpenter's union on the Southeast Expressway stating "WE ARE THE 99%"

Some Occupy folks in NH like to repeatedly say this is "unorganized." Really? I'm not seeing it. I've been part of libertarian groups since I moved to NH in 2008. We haven't received anything more than a passing "that guy" moment in the news when William Kostric was noticed for his [legal] open-carry the day the President was in town. Its taken the Tea Party a couple of years and a couple of billionaires to make the jump from fringe group to partisan insider. Occupy literally sprung up overnight and spread across the country like wildfire. Take a look at OccupyBoston's schedule....there are entire towns in New England that are not this organized. This doesn't even include the related-but-unscheduled mayhem, such as Anonymous (allegedly) hacking in to the BPD. Unorganized? Really?

Good things can happen when people get together. They aren't always obvious; some of my fellow libertarian friends are pooling our resources together for a project that will help us launch our respective side businesses. That effort absolutely isn't making the paper. I bet there are good things happening with the Occupy movement too. Perhaps people are sharing ideas and finding ways to make them work. Perhaps younger and/or unemployed folks are furthering their organizational and leadership skills by working with the movement. Perhaps the movement is sparking fresh conversation among non-Occupy folks that can spurn new ideas to address the economic issues the country is facing.

I suppose whether one likes or dislikes the Occupy movement has to do with personal tastes and personal politics. In general it doesn't matter much to me if someone supports the movement -- at least the not-hurting-people part of the movement. But the whole "unorganized" mantra?

 

[Josh Oakley]

I stay on the fence as far as the Occupy movement goes. I want to see whether it becomes truly revolutionary or not. So far it is hit or miss, and I have not found much positive to say about either their hits or their misses.

 

[Sukerkin]

When it comes to such public 'outcry', unless the powers that be actually want to change things, or aren't bothered one way or the other, protests have to be prolonged and usually violent before there is movement in the offocial position.

Look at CND, for example. HUGE support, including prominent political figures and still nothing happened until it became politically and economically expedient to do so (about 30 years later).

Working within the system is by far the most effective way of going about encouraging change but the problem, as has been pointed out before, is that the system is now so corrupted, by those holding most of the chips and the cards in the game, because the 'dealers' (i.e. the poilitcal parties) are not there for the benefit of the people. They are there to give the illusion of democracy and so keep the peasantry quiet.

It's a depressing picture I know but it is one that will only endure as long as the money holds out. When the West has been leeched to it's knees and the East has been empowered to fill the vacuum then we might get something like effective democracy back. I'm not holding my breath tho'.

 

[Makalakumu]

America is going to get the "IMF treatment" like Argentina if Occupy isn't successful.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I tend to stay away form thing OWS beyond occasionally walking past the tents they have in a park near my office and to be honest I am not sure what to make of them. In part I hope they are successful at what I am starting to see as an overall goal but they lost me locally yesterday. They decided to stop protesting government and went and protested at Wal-Mart about buying locally.

I honestly do not feel that helped their cause in any way…it only made them look more decentralized and confused… but hat is just my opinion.

I am still however watching it on a nation al basis and do hope they succeed at what I think they are trying to do

 

[Bob Hubbard]

America is going to get the "IMF treatment" like Argentina if Occupy isn't successful.

Or the Tea party, or the Coffee party. Actually, I'm backing the Pizza Party.
Because unlike the other 3, the Pizza Party has no corporate backers, is completely independent of any other party, and just tastes better.

 

[Makalakumu]

For all of those people who are sitting back and watching and hoping OWS will be successful, what would convince you to get involved?

I'm not bothered by the unclear message of this thing, part of that is propaganda blown out of proportion by the presstitutes and part is a real misunderstanding of the problems. However, taking the step to GET INVOLVED is the most important step. People can always learn on the journey. You can't learn anything if you never take the first step though.

What's holding you back?

 

[Makalakumu]

Or the Tea party, or the Coffee party. Actually, I'm backing the Pizza Party.
Because unlike the other 3, the Pizza Party has no corporate backers, is completely independent of any other party, and just tastes better.

Occupy Pizza!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Occupy Pizza!

Now that, I can sink my teeth into.

Pizza Party Platform:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/192991314108005/permalink/203316403075496/
There's also the formation of the Department of Pizzaology charged with making good pizza affordable and available across the US.
I think it's in the health care overhaul bit.

Seriously though, you'll find that some of that platform is in alignment with the Occupy desires. Some of them. It avoids the unsustainable and unfair socialist aspects as well as many of the unconstitutional aspects currently being shoved down our throats.

 

[granfire]

Isn't that blasphemy as self confessed pastafarian?

I mean, after all, pizza and pasta are closely related!

 

[billc]

Since the pepper spray thread was locked I am posting this video clip of the UC jerks here. I thought that the protestors had simply blocked the side walk and that if someone was interested they could just walk around them. From this video clip, it looks like they linked arms all the way across the sidewalk, and also blocked the grass on either side. The video also shows the LT. speaking to each of the protestors, informing them what they were doing was illegal and that they were exposing themselves to a certain amount of force to remove them. He apparently spoke to each of the protestors before spraying them.. .

http://www.breitbart.tv/video-proof-uc-davis-protesters-were-warned-before-pepper-spray-incident/

Hmmm...if another student had walked forward and tried to walk through the seated protesters, would they have allowed them to pass peacefully, or would they have kept them from walking through the line. In that case, what would the supporters of these jerks believe was the appropriate response?

 

[jks9199]

That's quite a bit astray of the topic. If you wish to attempt to continue discussing that incident, you may want to start a new thread.

 

[Makalakumu]

Since the pepper spray thread was locked I am posting this video clip of the UC jerks here. I thought that the protestors had simply blocked the side walk and that if someone was interested they could just walk around them. From this video clip, it looks like they linked arms all the way across the sidewalk, and also blocked the grass on either side. The video also shows the LT. speaking to each of the protestors, informing them what they were doing was illegal and that they were exposing themselves to a certain amount of force to remove them. He apparently spoke to each of the protestors before spraying them.. .

http://www.breitbart.tv/video-proof-uc-davis-protesters-were-warned-before-pepper-spray-incident/

Hmmm...if another student had walked forward and tried to walk through the seated protesters, would they have allowed them to pass peacefully, or would they have kept them from walking through the line. In that case, what would the supporters of these jerks believe was the appropriate response?

Bill, it doesn't matter if the police officer goes up and gives each of the protesters a hug and kiss before he pepper sprays them. The point is that these students are protesting against massive government corruption/collusion and this police officer is acting as a representative of this corrupt system. Sure, we're not Egypt, where the stormtroopers would simply open fire on people doing this, but then again, the protests haven't put millions in the streets yet and put the system to the test. This thing is in its infancy and it will grow as the US spirals down the prescribed bankster plan into debt and receivership. Then we'll see a variation on the IMF Riot and pepper spray will be replaced with bullets.

The cops are on the wrong side. At some point, they are going to have to make a tough decision that is going to challenge their very identity. A lot of folks will just go along with it though, even while their wealth is confiscated and they are getting the shaft by their masters, because they don't have the self-knowledge that it takes to evaluate what they really believe in.

And a lot of folks are going to sitting on the sidelines trying and failing to explain this, because of a sad clinging to old partisan propaganda that no longer applies.

So, yeah, support your local OWS. Get involved or get what's coming. We've known for a long time that it was unsustainable, now the karma bill is coming.

 

[billc]

Makalakumu, what you fail to see is that the jerks in the OWS movement are not the solution to the problems you see. For example, the Tea Party sees the same problems you do. The government is taking money from good people, and either keeping it for themselves or dolling it out to their friends and supporters. For you, it is the evil corporations behind this activity, for the Tea Party, it doesn't matter who is doing the taking, they just realize that no matter how much the politicians get in taxes, wherever and from whoever they get it, they are only going to use it to enrich themselves and their friends. The tea party, therefore, wants low taxes, huge cuts in spending and more control over the politicians, through the election process or some form of term limits to limit their power. The OWS guys hate the fact that the corporations get rich by manipulating greedy politicians, but here is the problem...

The OWS movement doesn't want to limit the power of government, or reduce the amount of money they receive, the OWS movement just wants to change the recipient of that money to themselves. They want the greedy politicians to take money from the greedy corporations and give it to the greedy members of the OWS movement. The cycle will continue and your heroes will turn into the very evil monsters they have turned into throughout history, in Russia, Germany, Cambodia, China and all the other "Peoples Paradises," that fill up mass graves.

This is the very reason they have studiously avoided going to the one place where they might actually annoy the right people, members of congress and president Obama. Congress and Obama are their Santa Claus. The government goodies come from the very greedy politicians who have made the financial mess a reality. The OWS can't go after those folks because they know, deep down, that the goody train will end for them if they go after the actual politicians who caused the mortgage meltdown, and who recieve the corporate greed handouts.

 

[Makalakumu]

Bill, I've gone to the big Tea Party rallies on Oahu. I've gone to the OWS rallies here. You've got a good Fox News breakdown of what is going on, but let me tell you from experience that this isn't an accurate picture. Both groups have plenty of people who gave impassioned speeches about how they can use government to fix problems that government caused. It's the fundamental flaw in both movements IMO. That's not something people are truly ready to deal with yet though.

And in both groups you have a huge amount of people who see the collusion of financial power and government for what it is, a serious threat to the stability of this country. We've got to connect these people in order to make any difference at all, and that means ignoring the presstitute media and their spin. It also means that we need to take personal responsibility for the information we get about the movements and act accordingly. Ultimately, I've found good and bad in both movements, bit people use the latter as an excuse to not do anything.

Sad isn't it.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

 

[billc]

Makalakumu, why aren't the OWS people occupying the offices of members of congress or marching on the lawn of the white house? I mean, if they are serious about what they see as the problem that is.

 

[jks9199]

A hint wasn't enough. Under ordinary circumstances, the Staff here refrains from active moderation of threads that they're involved in. I'm making an exception.

Posts regarding the use of pepper spray at UC-Davis are off topic. They will be strictly moderated.

Attention All Users:

Please return to the original topic.

jks9199
Super Moderator

 

[Makalakumu]

Makalakumu, why aren't the OWS people occupying the offices of members of congress or marching on the lawn of the white house? I mean, if they are serious about what they see as the problem that is.

Honestly? That's probably going to get you killed.

This movement is about Occupying Attention. I see it as a way of designing a message and networking and educating people who aren't paying attention. I didn't go out to the park to protest the financial oligarchs here. I went to talk to people and get a message out. It's grassroots politics really.

One of my messages, RON PAUL 2012. See, I don't totally think working within the system is worthless...

 

[Josh Oakley]

That's quite a bit astray of the topic. If you wish to attempt to continue discussing that incident, you may want to start a new thread.

I have to disagree. Whereas the UCD thread was about a specific incident, this is about OWS in general, and the OP allowed us to talk about our various resons. This would qualify as a reason not to support it. It is a reason I don't. "If you let them go, we will let you leave" was a blatant threat to the police there. The OWS movement may be nonviolent so far, but they are certainly not peaceful.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Bill, it doesn't matter if the police officer goes up and gives each of the protesters a hug and kiss before he pepper sprays them. The point is that these students are protesting against massive government corruption/collusion and this police officer is acting as a representative of this corrupt system. Sure, we're not Egypt, where the stormtroopers would simply open fire on people doing this, but then again, the protests haven't put millions in the streets yet and put the system to the test. This thing is in its infancy and it will grow as the US spirals down the prescribed bankster plan into debt and receivership. Then we'll see a variation on the IMF Riot and pepper spray will be replaced with bullets.

The cops are on the wrong side. At some point, they are going to have to make a tough decision that is going to challenge their very identity. A lot of folks will just go along with it though, even while their wealth is confiscated and they are getting the shaft by their masters, because they don't have the self-knowledge that it takes to evaluate what they really believe in.

And a lot of folks are going to sitting on the sidelines trying and failing to explain this, because of a sad clinging to old partisan propaganda that no longer applies.

So, yeah, support your local OWS. Get involved or get what's coming. We've known for a long time that it was unsustainable, now the karma bill is coming.

Frankly, that last sentence sounds like a threat.