Homosexuality - Nature, Nurture or Both?

[elder999]

See the whole story here

WASHINGTON - Gay men's brains respond differently from those of heterosexual males when exposed to a sexual stimulus, researchers have found. The homosexual men's brains responded more like those of women when the men sniffed a chemical from the male hormone testosterone. "It is one more piece of evidence ... that is showing that sexual orientation is not all learned," said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Personally, I'd prefer to see some actual peer-reviewed research on the subject matter (preferably from several sources) before accepting the notion that something like fetishism is "genetic".

But, that's just me.

There might be a genetic tendency towards certain behaviors that is shaped by experience. A person with genetic OCD might find bondage appealing as a way to "control" a partner. Someone wired in a certain way might respond to spankings as a child differently than the rest of us, and find the experience stimulates an unnatural release of endorphins...we then get the masochist.

This is speculation on my part. Still, the OCD route would be worth exploring. Fetishists take particular delight in specific, rather bizarre rituals and by objectifying specific objects. Some guys reeeeally get into shoes, others corsets, others fishnet stockings.

This is an extension of sorts of what many of us get turned on by. Some men are leg men, others focus their desire on breasts, or butts. (I, of course, am the exception in that I truly respect all women for their mind and seek a deep platonic relationship with a soul mate...with big boobs.)

But HOW does that attraction extend to fetishes? Shoes and fishnets might enhance a woman's legs somehow...the fetishist takes it to an extreme. Corsets give an hourglass figure, a secondary sex characteristic naturally attractive to many males. A guy with a corset fetish places a far greater focus on the item. So a biological attractant can be taken to an extreme, perhaps...and some of that inducement to extremity is the environment pushing a natural attraction to the level of what many call deviant, and others call variety.



Regards,


Steve

 

[hardheadjarhead]

A little more to add to the mix of controversy: a new study shows gay men and straight women are stimulated by male pheromones:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7358



Regards,


Steve

 

[heretic888]

There might be a genetic tendency towards certain behaviors that is shaped by experience. A person with genetic OCD might find bondage appealing as a way to "control" a partner. Someone wired in a certain way might respond to spankings as a child differently than the rest of us, and find the experience stimulates an unnatural release of endorphins...we then get the masochist.

Steve, the key word being "might".

I didn't say it was implausible. Or, even impossible. All I'm sayin' is that I'd prefer to see some damn good research into the subject before tossing my hat into the ring.

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Steve, the key word being "might".

I didn't say it was implausible. Or, even impossible. All I'm sayin' is that I'd prefer to see some damn good research into the subject before tossing my hat into the ring.

:asian:

Well, we can use volunteers and start in with that research right now.

Kneel, and be submissive to Shesulsa, Heretic!

(He's been bad, SS. Verrrry bad.)


I'll take notes.


Regards,


Steve

 

[shesulsa]

Well, we can use volunteers and start in with that research right now.

Kneel, and be submissive to Shesulsa, Heretic!

(He's been bad, SS. Verrrry bad.)


I'll take notes.

*Pulls on leather* Hmmm??? Bad, you say?? Slowly turns to Heretic ... :EG:

 

[donald]

I believe that it is ultimitely a choice. The Lord Jesus has given us(humanity)a free will. Its no different than the one who chooses to drink a shot of whiskey, or to smoke a joint for the first time. No one truly knows the eventual outcome of such a choice. Except that if we continue to make choices outside of GOD's word. We put ourselves in peril. Now I am well aware of the fact that there are people on this forum. Who do not believe that the Bible is THE word of GOD. Or that there even is a GOD. Once again it comes down to choice. Once we have made a conscience decision to do something repeatedly. It becomes extremely hard to do an about face. These are just my thoughts on the subject, but admittedly from a Christian perspective.
By GOD's Grace,
Donald 1stJohn 1:9

 

[shesulsa]

I believe that it is ultimitely a choice. The Lord Jesus has given us(humanity)a free will. Its no different than the one who chooses to drink a shot of whiskey, or to smoke a joint for the first time. No one truly knows the eventual outcome of such a choice. Except that if we continue to make choices outside of GOD's word. We put ourselves in peril. Now I am well aware of the fact that there are people on this forum. Who do not believe that the Bible is THE word of GOD. Or that there even is a GOD. Once again it comes down to choice. Once we have made a conscience decision to do something repeatedly. It becomes extremely hard to do an about face. These are just my thoughts on the subject, but admittedly from a Christian perspective.
By GOD's Grace,
Donald 1stJohn 1:9

Sorry, Donald, but this is a very protected, very slanted, very ignorant viewpoint. To say that all sexuality is by choice would indicate that you could freely choose to engage sexually with another human your same gender and have no problems with it whatsoever. Do you think that would be the case for you? Most likely not.

I'm glad you feel you can fall on your faith for all your answers, but this is just not true for most homosexual people. Not all homosexual people make a conscious choice to prefer the same gender, they just do - as you prefer the opposing gender (I assume). To claim they have another choice would not necessarily be a lie, but would be as disgusting and wrong to them as their preference is to you.

There's more than free will going on here, sir. Open your eyes - the truth shall set you free.

 

[donald]

I don't believe anything other than The Lord Jesus created Adam, and Eve. Right there is the intent of design. One couple, not 2... I am sorry that you feel the need to call me ignorant, but the facts are what they are. We(men, and women) have been designed for one another. To go against that is by choice. Some where down the line the person made a choice to try out what was going through their mind. You do something enough, and its going to become second nature. Ask any recovered addict how they began their journey. I am willing to wager that in the begining it was just for kicks, but eventually they were overcome by their choice. Now it seems as if their ability to choose is gone.
By GOD's Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9

 

[rmcrobertson]

Unfortunately, this is the United States: we're a democracy, not a right-wing theocracy. Oh, and there's the whole science thing...

If your Nobodaddy ("Old Nobodaddy aloft/Farted and belched and coughed/And said, / 'I like hanging and drawing and quartering/ Every bit as much as slaying and slaughtering'") sends people to hell for being gay or for thinking that leaving other people to live their life in peace is a sin, well--to paraphrase Huck Finn's great moral statement--"I'll GO to hell, then."

If you're offended, sir, you may take it that I am deeply offended.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Unfortunately, this is the United States: we're a democracy, not a right-wing theocracy. Oh, and there's the whole science thing...

If your Nobodaddy ("Old Nobodaddy aloft/Farted and belched and coughed/And said, / 'I like hanging and drawing and quartering/ Every bit as much as slaying and slaughtering'") sends people to hell for being gay or for thinking that leaving other people to live their life in peace is a sin, well--to paraphrase Huck Finn's great moral statement--"I'll GO to hell, then."

If you're offended, sir, you may take it that I am deeply offended.

Other than your obvious attempt to turn everything into a political duel, I agree with you on this topic.

I heard it put best once that leftwingers believe that boys and girls are identical, until they are taught to differentiate between sexes, sex roles are entirely learned....except homosexuality of course (pure drivel).

(Religious) Rightwingers, on the other hand, believe that all sex behavior is a born trait, girls are born to be girls, boys to be boys, and that we are made that way, it's NOT learned....except homosexuality (more pure drivel).

You can't have it both ways folks. Fact is, both these positions are self-serving, AND, contradictory. I have no doubt that most homosexuals are born homosexual and, therefore, should not be treated as outcasts simply because of the lot they were born to. Are sex roles learned and not inborn? I believe that the majority of our sex roles are determined before we are born, then we spend the rest of our lives fine tuning.

Just my observations, take it for what's it worth. I do find it telling, however, that most of the homosexuals I know, I could tell they were homosexual for YEARS before they themselves were sure. It seems pretty convincing to me that it wasn't a choice they woke up one day and made.

 

[Brother John]

I'm a 'religious' person as well. A Christian. I believe that God made us all as well. I believe in 'objective truth'. I don't believe that homosexuality is 'right'.
BUT:
I believe it's also morally/ethically wrong to try to make "moral" judgements for anyone beyond yourself or those you are fully accountable for. (Like our own children, before the age of accountability)

SO... this whole question of "Where does homosexuality come from" is irrelevent in my eyes. Unless I mean to force a moral judgement on someone else, I've got no use for such a debate. Like I've said before, I think that the 'source of homosexuality' is complex and probably (like the rest of life) a very dynamic rig of action/reaction....etc. Not some black and white "Nothin-but....xyz" cause.
But it just doesn't matter.
It just doesn't matter..
it just doesn't matter....
it just doesn't matter......

(movie reference anyone?? Hint: Early 80s, Bill Murry)

Your Brother
John

 

[heretic888]

Sorry, Donald, but this is a very protected, very slanted, very ignorant viewpoint.

Well, shesulsa, you just have to actually look at what Donald is saying.

He is basically expressing mythic-agrarian values in which it was believed that, no matter what happens to you, it is ultimately your fault (for better or worse). This was tied intimately with the notion of predestination, in which if you were born with a natural handicap, it was because God "knew" what kind of a person you were going to be and is punishing you in advance. Or, possibly, a the sins of the father kind of thing.

This kind of thinking also rationalized the social hiearchies existing in culture at the time. Meaning, your poor because God's punishing you. Or something to that effect. In any event, its ultimately your fault.

Then there came the Enlightenment --- and a lot of people, maybe most people, began to see things very, very differently.

 

[ed-swckf]

The title of this thread should read "sexuality - Nature, Nurture or Both?"

 

[elder999]

I don't believe anything other than The Lord Jesus created Adam, and Eve. Right there is the intent of design. One couple, not 2... I am sorry that you feel the need to call me ignorant, but the facts are what they are. We(men, and women) have been designed for one another. To go against that is by choice. Some where down the line the person made a choice to try out what was going through their mind. You do something enough, and its going to become second nature. Ask any recovered addict how they began their journey. I am willing to wager that in the begining it was just for kicks, but eventually they were overcome by their choice. Now it seems as if their ability to choose is gone.
By GOD's Grace,
Donald 1st John 1:9

As a heterosexual, reformed Christian who graduated from seminary, I always tell Bible thumpers like yourself that I always follow Jesus's teaching in the New Testament about homosexuality, which is...precisely nothing.

Closest I can find is ..judge not.

As for the "Old Testament," let's not even go down that road-as someone who has read it in Greek, Hebrew and Syriac(Aramaic) and looked at it through the cultural lens of a warrior/tribal/agrarian society, as well as what are thought to be the practices at the time, I can make a fairly detailed (and lengthy) case for the strictures against "not lying with a man in the manner of a woman" not being against "homosexuality" per se, but against being on the receiving end of certain homosexual acts.

 

[heretic888]

It should also be mentioned, at this point, that perhaps the values of a mythic-agrarian society aren't particularly appropriate to an increasingly rational-industrial/informational soceity, neh?

I mean, fer crissakes, these guys thought the planet was flat and the universe was geocentric!!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well, shesulsa, you just have to actually look at what Donald is saying.

He is basically expressing mythic-agrarian values in which it was believed that, no matter what happens to you, it is ultimately your fault (for better or worse). This was tied intimately with the notion of predestination, in which if you were born with a natural handicap, it was because God "knew" what kind of a person you were going to be and is punishing you in advance. Or, possibly, a the sins of the father kind of thing.

This kind of thinking also rationalized the social hiearchies existing in culture at the time. Meaning, your poor because God's punishing you. Or something to that effect. In any event, its ultimately your fault.

Then there came the Enlightenment --- and a lot of people, maybe most people, began to see things very, very differently.

You just might be mixing free will with predestination. The two are mutually, philosophically exclusive. You either believe one or the other.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

New in the news, along with the study showing Gays are attracted to male pheromones, is a study saying that fruit flies can be genetically tweaked so that they're homosexual.


http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/05/06/04/100wir_flies001.cfm


Fruit flies?

I'll only be convinced when they replicate the experiment with a more macho sort of fly...like a common house fly. These latter are far more athletic, manly, and muscular. They have attitude. They puke on doody and then eat it. They're the 1% bikers of the fly world. If THEY can be made homosexual, then there might be something to it...but I'm withholding judgement on a study on these banana sucking "drosophila."


Drosophila even sounds gay.



Regards,


Steve

 

[TonyM.]

Read the pheromone article last month. Explains why I can't stand the odor of other males. I'd prefer if they tweeked the dna of fruitflies to make them extict.

 

[Shorin-ryu Sensei]

I've heard that you can't tell what a homosexual looks like but now there are studies you can tell by looking at their hands?

What about the lisp thing? Is that another genetic give-away? Or is it more of a nurture thing. I know when I used to hang around with a lot of Polish immigrants I would catch myself picking up an accent back in middle school so maybe that's an aquired thing, along with an eye for interior design.

I can understand that such a persecuted group would look for some biological explanation to justify their behavior but some of this is a stretch. Especially genetics, something we probably shouldn't be medling in anyways.

"We're here, we're queer!" OK, big deal. Now go home cuz I don't really care.

The simplest way to tell the difference is to go to your local mall and watch the people .......... those walking upright are queer ...... those lumbering with a simian gate are straight ..... it's amazing how much this is true.