Do you agree with his Taiji application?

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Spit" means sending out energy or force, while "swallow" means taking in energy or force.

I don't mind people use those abstract words as long as they also talk about how to:

- develop such skill, and
- test such skill.

For example, when I cross trained the Zimen system, the 1st Zimen principle is "残 - cruelty". The way that Zimen people train this principle is to pull opponent's arm with one hand, the other hand strike at his opponent's kidney with palm up and fingertips forward. In other words, a Zimen guy intends to kill his opponent with his first strike - cruelty.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's really good video. It's easy to see the form of the techniques. Nice and simple movement.

FYI, That stomp can be and usually is, on the foot of the other guy

 

[isshinryuronin]

This was more about an internal vs. external difference, or maybe even an internal vs. internal one.

This is the kind of thing can could be included or originating in the philosophical/geographical differences I was talking about. Maybe my theory is not entirely accurate, but perhaps lays a general basis for some of the reasons for one CMA style being at odds with another.

Goju and Uechi-ryu karate styles (Naha-te based) are often said to be more internal than the Shuri/Tomari-te based styles like shorinryu which some say are more external. This is a topic of mild discussion, but one I put little stock in. While some of the Naha styles may have a more "internal" method of training, in executing application there is not much difference between theirs and the Shuri styles. Besides, when you get kicked in the nuts, internal-external makes little difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when you get kicked in the nuts, internal-external makes little difference.

Many years ago, a nonmartial scholar invented the word "internal", people started to argue about it for the next 300 years.

I also like to say when you kill someone with your punch, the judge won't care about whether you may train "internal" or external.

 

[Buka]

Personally, I love Tai Chi.

 

[windwalker099]

Besides, when you get kicked in the nuts, internal-external makes little difference.

Well there is this for those interested

Iron Crotch (铁裆功, Tiě Dāng Gōng): This is a form of training within the broader category of Iron Body training, aimed at strengthening the body to withstand impacts. It includes exercises to control the cremaster muscle, which allows the practitioner to draw the testes up into the inguinal canal, protecting them during combat or intense training.

or this

Golden Bell Cover (金钟罩, Jīn Zhōng Zhào): This is another form of Iron Body training that encompasses techniques to protect the body, including the groin area. It involves breathing exercises, muscle control, and Qi circulation

This is the kind of thing can could be included or originating in the philosophical/geographical differences I was talking about. Maybe my theory is not entirely accurate, but perhaps lays a general basis for some of the reasons for one CMA style being at odds with another.

It wasn't about styles being at odds with each other; it was about the training method, what was being trained, how, and why.

Just as with the questions about the clip of "single whip" and the feet positions, the teacher explained it one way while others looked at it differently.

The teacher demonstrated what he could do using his method.

In general, most Chinese internal arts use the same theory as basis for what they do in their training expressed in different ways.

In my teacher's group, it was more about how and what people felt about what had just happened to them, unable to explain or duplicate it. Some coming from different backgrounds feeling they should be able to understand it through their backgrounds...

One would have to "get in the weeds"
as they say to really understand some of the issues...not the topic of this thread.

Have no interest in doing so...in most cases it's a waste of time,
with people trying to make a point about something they don't do, nor practice...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have no interest in doing so...in most cases it's a waste of time,
with people trying to make a point about something they don't do, nor practice...

This argument can go both ways. "Internal" people may think the following are "waste of time", "have no interest in doing so", and "they don't do, nor practice".

- Sweat.
- Hard.
- Head bend down.
- Weight training.
- Use leg skill to throw.
- Give before taking (attack first).
- ...

What bother me the most is the "superiority" attitude that IMA people may have. In their eyes, everything is low level if they don't train it.

For example, IMA people may think that "push" is superior to kick/punch/lock/throw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Personally, I love Tai Chi.

Here is a good example. I assume Taiji is not your primary MA style. But you can say, "I love Taiji".

I have never heard any Taiji guy said, "I love boxing", or "I love Judo/wrestling".

Why?

 

[Buka]

Here is a good example. I assume Taiji is not your primary MA style. But you can say, "I love Taiji".

I have never heard any Taiji guy said, "I love boxing", or "I love Judo/wrestling".

Why?

I don’t know, I guess you would have to ask them.

I know if I had access to Tai Chi throughout my Martial career I’d be a better Martial Artist, boxer and kickboxer.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem with abstract is that it could be culturally based. So what makes sense in one culture does not make sense in another culture.
Example: "Suck and spit"
Everyone does not do this the same way. So, what is the norm in China gets distorted when the same thing is said somewhere.

I think abstract should only exist on a scholar level among people who already have a high enough understanding of it. If the goal is to learn how to do something then it should be clear as possible. How to bake a banana cake should not have abstract instructions. How to apply a technique should be clear as possible. Those who already know how to apply the technique are the only ones who can afford to be abstract.

A person who doesn't know how to apply the technique with often get the abstract incorrect and the application of the technique incorrect.

Chinese Martial Arts for me = The translation needs a translation

 

[windwalker099]

The problem with abstract is that it could be culturally based. So what makes sense in one culture does not make sense in another culture.
Example: "Suck and spit"
Everyone does not do this the same way. So, what is the norm in China gets distorted when the same thing is said somewhere.

Apparently, some have problems understanding what a metaphor is

A metaphor is a figure of speech that involves comparing two unlike things without using "like" or "as." Instead of saying something is "like" something else, a metaphor asserts that something is something else, highlighting similarities between the two.

Metaphors are used to create more vivid and imaginative descriptions, making abstract or complex ideas easier to understand by relating them to more familiar concepts.

Some people seem to miss the point of using them and why they are used.

As for cultural bias. Taught ESL overseas.

Part of the instruction involved teaching students common idioms used in the US and their meanings.
For those studying culturally based arts, it's expected that they understand the nuances and meanings of the words used pertaining to the art they study.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Apparently, some have problems understanding what a metaphor is





Some people seem to miss the point of using them and why they are used.

As for cultural bias. Taught ESL overseas.

Part of the instruction involved teaching students common idioms used in the US and their meanings.
For those studying culturally based arts, it's expected that they understand the nuances and meanings of the words used pertaining to the art they study.

Many English speakers, or for that matter any speaker that is not Chinese, do not understand Chinese metaphors
Expecting someone to understand a Chinese metaphor who is not Chinese brings to mind a Chinese metaphor

duì niú tán qín (對牛彈琴), playing lute to a cow.

Not many Chen teachers, not even the Chen family, will stop and explain Jin Gang Dao Dui (金刚倒碓) Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar, and the associated metaphor..and at times, not even translate.

 

[windwalker099]

duì niú tán qín (對牛彈琴), playing lute to a cow.

Metaphors

Iron palm
Phoenix eye fist
single whip

ect...

no one seems to have problems with them

Not many Chen teachers, not even the Chen family, will stop and explain Jin Gang Dao Dui (金刚倒碓) Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar, and the associated metaphor..and at times, not even translate.

In China, it's expected that the "student" figures it out through practice.

IME, a little different in the West; many "students" seem to feel that as long as they can write about it or someone explains it well, they understand it.

My teacher didn't say much. His explanations were through his hands.

As in, "Oh, you don't understand? Come here and try it." After getting up from the ground, "Do you understand now?"

Ah, think I better "practice" more.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Metaphors

Iron palm
Phoenix eye fist
single whip

ect...

no one seems to have problems with them

In China, it's expected that the "student" figures it out through practice.

IME, a little different in the West; many "students" seem to feel that as long as they can write about it or someone explains it well, they understand it.

My teacher didn't say much. His explanations were through his hands.

As in, "Oh, you don't understand? Come here and try it." After getting up from the ground, "Do you understand now?"

Ah, think I better "practice" more.

Maybe it is just me, and if it is I apologize, but I am sensing a bit of condescension in your post, and the emojis are not helping

My shifu, actually most of my Shifu's in CMA are from China and they all teach by doing, not a lot of explanation. Especially my Yang Shifu. I have also been to China, although I have not trained in China, almost did, twice. One time I made the possible teacher nervous based on my lineage (Taijiquan), the second time the guy scared the heck out of me with a look (Xingyiquan) and I backed out. And I am only there for a shor period of time.

Where did you train in China?

 

[windwalker099]

Maybe it is just me, and if it is I apologize, but I am sensing a bit of condescension in your post, and the emojis are not helping

My shifu, actually most of my Shifu's in CMA are from China and they all teach by doing, not a lot of explanation. Especially my Yang Shifu. I have also been to China, although I have not trained in China, almost did, twice. One time I made the possible teacher nervous based on my lineage (Taijiquan), the second time the guy scared the heck out of me with a look (Xingyiquan) and I backed out. And I am only there for a shor period of time.

Where did you train in China?

Thank you for bringing it to my attention .

If you feel this way.
Allow me to apologize; it's not done purposely.
my small attempt at humor , might not play well...something I will monitor .

I trained in Beijing for a period of 10 years, couple of months at a time.
My teacher's name is Master Zhang Youngliang (1920-2020).

He was my last taiji teacher,
ultimately, the last CMA teacher in my own path

​

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thank you for bringing it to my attention .

If you feel this way.
Allow me to apologize; it's not done purposely.
my small attempt at humor , might not play well...something I will monitor .

I trained in Beijing for a period of 10 years, couple of months at a time.
My teacher's name is Master Zhang Youngliang (1920-2020).

Also trained in Korea many yrs before going to China.
In Taiwan, I had a couple of people working on
a taiji project I was developing...蒼鷺太極
Nice place,,,good food, good people

​

Heron Taiji....have not heard of that, interesting. I'm working on my own style as well at the moment, not sure what to call it just yet, working title at the moment is 王式太极拳

I have been dealing with Gastritis issues for well over a year now. But in Beijing, I have no problems and can eat whatever I want. Sadly, 7000 miles is to far to commute for lunch

And the nearest Chinatown is a 3 hour drive away.... however when I retire, within the next 3 years, it will be at most 1 hour to Chinatown.

 

[windwalker099]

Heron Taiji....have not heard of that, interesting. I'm working on my own style as well at the moment, not sure what to call it just yet, working title at the moment is 王式太极拳

My teacher once told me..

"When you understand taiji you can call what you do as you wish, you can name it "xxx taiji” He laughed as he said this, suddenly he became more quite, reflective, deep in thought and said “there is only one taiji”

After he passed, reaching my own understanding.
I started to work on a project addressing some things, I felt lacking in my own work..

蒼鷺太極​

Named after “the heron” embodying many of its qualities, a traditional approach based on basic proven fundamental methods of the past, for the reality of the present.
“The Heron, is comfortable in a space that is neither here nor there. “

Developed in Hsinchu, TW.
Tsang Lu combines Taiji theory and movement, with the unique foot work and long arm of Tibetan White Crane , developing and focusing on functional usage based awareness."

spent some 5yrs or so working on this...before dropping the project.
maybe as some point, I will complete it...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's a thought.

Can you really contribute to theory without experiencing application?

 

[drop bear]

Here's a thought.

Can you really contribute to theory without experiencing application?

Yes through data.

But not applicable here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's a thought.

Can you really contribute to theory without experiencing application?

May be the question should be asked, which one should come first? theory, or application?

Theory needs application to support. Does application need to be supported by theory?

What is the theory of boxing jab-cross-hook-uppercut-overhand? The theory can be "attack your opponent's open area".