Do you agree with his Taiji application?

[JowGaWolf]

But his left hand is facing east, and his right hand is facing west. His eyes also look toward east.

View attachment 31692

It took me a while to even know what position you were describing. If I'm following the conversation correctly in Jow Ga Kung fu we call this splitting power.

 

[drop bear]

And ?

Does it impact "your" or anyone else's training ?
Are you willing to go out and help them see the "light" or better yet
be the "example " helping others find their way

In CMA what are known as, sometimes refereed to as "fighting" styles
The above mentioned doesn't happen to much...those within the systems
tend to pay their respects to those claiming to teach, or misrepresent, the practice,
in the traditional CMA way..

Taiji being billed by many as a health practice, doesn't do this so much unless one is explicitly claiming family style lineage,
and representation..

A matter for those within or close to, the culture, not so much for those outside of it...

IMO Better to remain a practitioner, sharing the art,
then claiming to be a representative of it, teaching the art.

less problems,,,more interesting in meeting with others..

Just in general being able to tell truth from fiction is kind of a handy skill set. (And not as common as you would think)

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the record Taijiquan is both hard Yang and soft Yin. it is balance. and it is supsed to be, even in application. Which is not something mosdt martial arts do. Most depend on Yang and only Yang

Are you saying that Taiji has no "throwing" in mind?

This is Chang Taiji application. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin believes that Taiji can be trained both soft way and hard way. He created Yin Yang Taiji.

Taijiquan has throws, Yang style: White Crane spreads its wings, Diagonal flying and there are others
Wu Style: I believe it is there version of White crane spreads its wings. It is basically a firemens carry to a throw on the ground
Chen: has a few
Sun has a couple too

Pushing and pulling can be throwing if leg skill is added in. But Taiji people don't want to talk about leg skill.

Chen does, as did my version of Yang style from Tung Ying Chieh.

We are talking about Taiji application here. You don't need Taiji application for health.

Well that depends on the scope you define health as.

My Shigong would tell youitis for health, which included all of what most consider heath these days as well as the ability to defend yourself and stay healthy

 

[Xue Sheng]

Dr Yang is very skilled. I like being his demo dummy,I learn a lot faster the hard way.

been there done that...Taijiquan SHifu, Xingyiquan Shifu and now my Wing Chun sifu is picking on me too

 

[Xue Sheng]

And ?

Does it impact "your" or anyone else's training ?
Are you willing to go out and help them see the "light" or better yet
be the "example " helping others find their way

In CMA what are known as, sometimes refereed to as "fighting" styles
The above mentioned doesn't happen to much...those within the systems
tend to pay their respects to those claiming to teach, or misrepresent, the practice,
in the traditional CMA way..

Taiji being billed by many as a health practice, doesn't do this so much unless one is explicitly claiming family style lineage,
and representation..

A matter for those within or close to, the culture, not so much for those outside of it...

IMO Better to remain a practitioner, sharing the art,
then claiming to be a representative of it, teaching the art.

less problems,,,more interesting in meeting with others..

It of course all depends on how you look at taijiquan. I have had students walk out at the mention of martial arts. There was a group at my Yang Shifu's class that was offended by me even being there, because my shifu and I did push hands that was not simply a drill... I'd end up on the floor more often than not. I was at one time very upset at the only for health, moving meditation, group. And I left class because of it and it caused a bit of a fall out with my Shifu.

These days, if and when I teach, I will teach what they want, health, martial apps, it is up to them, Everyone has thier reasons to learn taiji and if health wise it helps some, that is great. Very few want the martial arts of it these days, and many of those have no idea it was ever a martial art in the first place and most of those don't care.

I tend to agree with Chen Xiaowang, Taijiquan as a martial art is (virtually) dead. However that does not mean I am not training it as such

All CMA trains what is mentioned.
Expressions and emphasis may vary. For example, between.
"yang" and "chen" stylist it's very different with many
wondering about the differences

What makes it taiji or not

All I have to say is my Yang Shifu said of Chen Zhenglei's Chen style

"Chen is a good style, just to low"

Without me telling Chen Zhenglei about what my Shifu said Chen Zhenglei said

"Yang style is good taiji, just to high"

For the record, My Yang Shifu was of the belief that most teaching taijiquan these days have absolutely no idea what they are doing. And he based this on videos he saw of some rather big names in taijiquan these days. But he did like what he saw in Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang and a few other Chen folks. He also liked what he saw fro, Liang Shouyu. He was rather opinionated about taijiquan, but I will stop there to not get into arguing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It is relevant because there are cultural elements that those familiar with would know as part of the tradition from which the methods and training originated, that those outside of it, may have problems with.

For example, the question about the position of the feet was asked by someone, presumably a native speaker, who apparently either does not agree with it or does not understand it. .

The stance "single whip" was explained, mentioning cross-body alignment and energy flow through the back and front channels of the body, tied to each foot.

The construct used is not mechanically based, as has been mentioned. This might make it difficult to understand how power generation functions.

He shows the function of the method not tied to one idea as in a technique.
The reaction shown is in part due to what is called spiral power...


As to the OP's question :



Doesn't matter for me, for others it might..
It's their training, what they do, expressed as they train...

As you please. I may agree or disagree with any given statement based on my training and experience. One does not need to be a native speaker to understand concepts and theory if they have experienced quality training for a lengthy amount of time. My Sigung was a native speaker and had much to say in this regard.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

been there done that...Taijiquan SHifu, Xingyiquan Shifu and now my Wing Chun sifu is picking on me too

It’s been that way at every school I have trained at. I guess I have a look that says “beat on me, I like it.”

 

[windwalker099]

He was rather opinionated about taijiquan, but I will stop there to not get into arguing.

Many people have deep opinions
In China, and Taiwan, it can be quite heated at times..

My teacher's group in Beijing, it was a little strange that despite people feeling strongly about what they were arguing,
they couldn't agree on what it was they felt or how it was done when our teacher demonstrated on them.

Teachers of high skill developed their opinions due to level and experience.
Sometimes students pick up on the teacher's opinions without having the same level and experiences.

To be clear, for me any health aspect of the training is a byproduct...not my main focus.
For those seeking this aspect...always recommended others having a wider focus...

Feel it would be more "healthy" and clear to learn a moving type of Qi gong...

agreement, dis agreement, good...
sharing experiences and thoughts.



regards

 

[isshinryuronin]

Many people have deep opinions
In China, and Taiwan, it can be quite heated at times..

My teacher's group in Beijing, it was a little strange that despite people feeling strongly about what they were arguing,
they couldn't agree on what it was they felt or how it was done when our teacher demonstrated on them.

Teachers of high skill developed their opinions due to level and experience.
Sometimes students pick up on the teacher's opinions without having the same level and experiences.

To be clear, for me any health aspect of the training is a byproduct...not my main focus.
For those seeking this aspect...always recommended others having a wider focus...

Feel it would be more "healthy" and clear to learn a moving type of Qi gong...

agreement, dis agreement, good...
sharing experiences and thoughts.



regards

There is similar debate between karate styles, but it seems not as heated as in CMA as you describe. My theory for the different levels of "heat" between the two is based on cultural differences. In China there are two main historical factors involved.

Firstly, distance. It is 600-700 miles from Henan to Fujian provinces, well over a month of travel by horseback and at least triple that on foot (few bridges, tunnels or highways, not to mention bandits and warring states). Very few people undertook such a journey in the old days. It is only natural that there would be independent and differing styles of MA concepts and methods developing, resulting in China having many styles of kung fu with significant differences between them to contest about.

By contrast, Okinawa can be crossed by foot in three days, so their styles had much more cross-pollination and so are more similar to each other than MA styles across China. Accordingly, there is less to argue about.

Secondly, religion/philosophy. This element (also influenced by distance) is a historic influencer in CMA, whether it be Buddhist or Daoist in nature. Over the centuries various sects diverged from each other, each having their own deeply held beliefs, just as in old Europe (and certainly still present in modern times) where there is fierce debate between Catholics and Protestants (among other Christian branches). These schisms are reflected in their views of CMA and provide another point of the contention windwalker mentions.

Okinawa, by contrast, is very homogenous in its historical belief system, partly due to its small size and also because of their simpler, nature-based Shinto religion which had little influence on their TMA development. No deeply held philosophical differences were present to fuel heated opinions.

There are some issues Okinawan and Japanese karate have for discussion, but they are recent and are mainly about the emphasis put on sport karate or minor points of preferred technique. Certainly nothing to get heated about. While Master Shoshin Nagamine inserted Zen into his Mastsubayashi shorinryu, it was mostly a moralistic and meditative individual belief system and had little effect on his MA in the way it way physically executed.

IMO, the above describe the basis for some of the structural differences within CMA and between that and Okinawan MA.

 

[windwalker099]

There is similar debate between karate styles, but it seems not as heated as in CMA as you describe. My theory for the different levels of "heat" between the two is based on cultural differences. In China there are two main historical factors involved.

maybe ..

This was more about an internal vs. external difference, or maybe even an internal vs. internal one.

Many of the students my teacher taught had practiced what are called IMA (internal martial arts) by some, before meeting my teacher. After meeting him and finding something very different, they stayed. The problem for some was that they were unable to get past the lens of their previous training, feeling they had reached an understanding.

Which might have been ... just not the correct understanding for what our teacher was working with.

Having worked with many Taiji stylists over the years, for some it was hard to let go of their previous training, thinking they had reached a level of understanding. Often, they weren't able to let go.

It is quite interesting... depending on how one learned something, it can be quite hard, if not impossible, to change it if the training was "burned in" through usage.

I'm sure others have met those who studied "boxing," for instance, and tried to teach them to punch using different mechanics. It's not so easy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It took me a while to even know what position you were describing. If I'm following the conversation correctly in Jow Ga Kung fu we call this splitting power.

Could you explain what "splitting power" is?

One application that I can think of is

- Right hand control opponent's left wrist (control opponent's left arm).
- Left hand push on opponent's right shoulder joint (control opponent's right arm).
- Right hand can then punch on opponent's head. or obtain a head lock (next move after this picture).

If this is the case, his opponent is on the east direction. He has no reason to have his right foot pointing toward southwest.

In the following clip, it's clearly to see that the attacker's both feet are pointing toward his opponent (I like this Taiji "single whip" application). Many people think the left hand is the Taiji "single whip" striking hand. IMO, the right hand is much more powerful striking hand if one can control both of his opponent's arms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Could you explain what "splitting power" is?

I'll try. The closet visual i opening a bag of potato chips or something similar. Equal power goes in the opposite direction.

If a have a pad to the left side of my body and one to the right side of my body and I was told to hit both with a back fist at the same time with the same force in order to land a good strike on both at the same time.

in grappling, I would push and pull at the same time I sink my opponent. This forces hinm to resist against 3 things at the same time.

one hand pulls the other pushes. This is strong movement. pushing or pulling out of sync makes it easier for the person to resit one direction. If someone pulls your arm, then you only have to fight the pull. If someone pulls and pushes your arm then you have to fight pull, push. If you only fight push then pull wins. If you only fight pull then push wins. Vertical and horisontal movements can be added and it becomes more difficult to resit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

one hand pulls the other pushes.

We both use plain down to earth English that everybody can understand. In another Taiji thread, people say:

Complimentary but crude
Suck and spit
Open and close
Raise and drop

It's just too abstract for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To point your feet toward your opponent is pretty much a common sense in MA. I just can't believe this is even a debatable subject.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We both use plain down to earth English that everybody can understand. In another Taiji thread, people say:

Complimentary but crude
Suck and spit
Open and close
Raise and drop

It's just too abstract for me.

I don't like those either because they don't tell me what I should be doing and where my energy needs to go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't like those either because they don't tell me what I should be doing and where my energy needs to go.

- Poor and rich.
- Good and evil.
- Love and hate.
- Knowing and not knowing.
- ...

You can use this kind of pattern to confuse others. When you say, "Money is not everything, but without money, you can't do anything". Your saying can make you to feel very smart.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't like those either because they don't tell me what I should be doing and where my energy needs to go.

They are not meant to.

They are descriptive metaphors, as in "spit" for example.

"Spit" means sending out energy or force, while "swallow" means taking in energy or force.

"Spit" (吞, tūn) in internal martial arts like Xing Yi Quan and Taiji refers to the expression of internal energy (qi). It is the release or expulsion of energy during an attack. The concept is often paired with "swallow" (吐, tù), which refers to absorbing or taking in energy. The balance and interplay between "spit" and "swallow" are crucial in internal martial arts, emphasizing the cyclical nature of energy movement.

People talk of yin and yang.

No one has a problem with it, interpreting it according to their understanding.

Some have mentioned "plain English."

It is plain English,

A direct translation of terminology originating in China, used by those studying Chinese martial arts.

Wouldn't it be better for those practicing the arts, should understand what the terminology means and how it relates to their practice ?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Could you explain what "splitting power" is?

View attachment 31697

One application that I can think of is

- Right hand control opponent's left wrist (control opponent's left arm).
- Left hand push on opponent's right shoulder joint (control opponent's right arm).
- Right hand can then punch on opponent's head. or obtain a head lock (next move after this picture).

If this is the case, his opponent is on the east direction. He has no reason to have his right foot pointing toward southwest.

In the following clip, it's clearly to see that the attacker's both feet are pointing toward his opponent (I like this Taiji "single whip" application). Many people think the left hand is the Taiji "single whip" striking hand. IMO, the right hand is much more powerful striking hand if one can control both of his opponent's arms.

That's not split and to be honest I don't like the application being presented for cranes beak either, to many moving parts.

Split is off of diagonal flying
Which can be like this, or it is also a takedown. Although not shown here, I think you can figure out where it is

 

[JowGaWolf]

They are not meant to.

They are descriptive metaphors, as in "spit" for example.

"Spit" means sending out energy or force, while "swallow" means taking in energy or force.



People talk of yin and yang.

No one has a problem with it, interpreting it according to their understanding.

Some have mentioned "plain English."

It is plain English,

A direct translation of terminology originating in China, used by those studying Chinese martial arts.

Wouldn't it be better for those practicing the arts, should understand what the terminology means and how it relates to their practice ?

I used to teach kids. So I'm used to explaining things so a child can understand. Translations from one language to another can be really inaccurate sometimes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's not split and to be hones I don't like the application being presented for cranes beak either, to many moving parts.

Split is off of diagonal flying
Which can be like this, or it is also a takedown. Although not shown here, I think you can figure out where it is

That's really good video. It's easy to see the form of the techniques. Nice and simple movement.