Do We Really Need To Train?

[MJS]

A week or so ago, I started a thread in the FMA section, talking about violence in the FMAs. That thread was sparked by another thread in the Arnis section. My thread was about the way those arts look, as far as violence goes. Many of the Filipino arts, contain alot of blade work, so its only natural that to some, the use of the blade, either for offensive or defensive purpose, may look bad. In that thread, a member made this post:

As to not teaching bladed aspects of the art to beginning students here are some thoughts. If you look at crime across the country there are people killing other people with knives, and in some cases samurai swords already. In one story a guy was stabbed with a meat thermometer. The people who are going to kill other people with knives are doing it already and they don't seem to need any training to do it. In the area where I train, one young teenager killed his brother with a knife over a pair of tennis shoes. He just stabbed him in the chest. No time spent in training, no special skills. My instructor is also hesitant to teach knife skills to people who first come in to class. I understand this idea, but as I pointed out, the nuts and criminals are already killing people with knives, and the street gangs, who rack up a large body count every year, aren't teaching knife fighting skills to their members. They hand the 14 year old a pistol and tell him who to kill. Sometimes they actually hit the other criminal and not a civillian who happens to be in the area.

People who are going to kill other people are not going to martial arts schools and spending years of time training to advanced levels. There are some exceptions but that is generally not the trend. For some reason, killing someone with a knife seems to be something even an amatuer can do quite easily. My point, I guess would be teach the more violent aspects of the FMA when you are comfortable, but I wouldn't base that decision on the idea that you are giving someone a skill set that makes them more dangerous than they already are just walking into your school.

This post sparked me to start this thread, as I think there were some valid points made. And for the record, I'm not using this post to bash the member or what he said, but simply as a spring board for this new thread.

This member is correct. There is alot of violence with the use of the knife, from an untrained person. People are stabbed all the time, on the street as well as in prisons. So no, it doesnt always take a trained person to inflict damage. My counter to this was that in addition to the knife being used by untrained people, those same people, for years, have also fought empty handed. Not every fight out there is going to involve a weapon. Some people just opt to beat the snot out of someone, bare handed.

So, if these things are supposedly true, then this brings us to the title of this thread....why do we need to train? I commented in that other thread, that training, simply makes us, as well as our skills, better and more refined, than they would be, were we to have no training at all. Yes, anyone can just swing away, and we see that in many of the youtube clips out there...people just swinging away. However, IMHO, training gives us the tools to target specific areas better. It helps us refine our offensive as well as defensive skills. These are just a few of the things, but at this time, I'll open the discussion up for others to give their thoughts.

 

[sfs982000]

A week or so ago, I started a thread in the FMA section, talking about violence in the FMAs. That thread was sparked by another thread in the Arnis section. My thread was about the way those arts look, as far as violence goes. Many of the Filipino arts, contain alot of blade work, so its only natural that to some, the use of the blade, either for offensive or defensive purpose, may look bad. In that thread, a member made this post:



This post sparked me to start this thread, as I think there were some valid points made. And for the record, I'm not using this post to bash the member or what he said, but simply as a spring board for this new thread.

This member is correct. There is alot of violence with the use of the knife, from an untrained person. People are stabbed all the time, on the street as well as in prisons. So no, it doesnt always take a trained person to inflict damage. My counter to this was that in addition to the knife being used by untrained people, those same people, for years, have also fought empty handed. Not every fight out there is going to involve a weapon. Some people just opt to beat the snot out of someone, bare handed.

So, if these things are supposedly true, then this brings us to the title of this thread....why do we need to train? I commented in that other thread, that training, simply makes us, as well as our skills, better and more refined, than they would be, were we to have no training at all. Yes, anyone can just swing away, and we see that in many of the youtube clips out there...people just swinging away. However, IMHO, training gives us the tools to target specific areas better. It helps us refine our offensive as well as defensive skills. These are just a few of the things, but at this time, I'll open the discussion up for others to give their thoughts.

I think you hit the nail on the head at the end of your post in regards to training refining our skills both offensively and defensively. Do we need to train? I would say no, as you pointed out with society there is already violent actions that are made by non-trained people. The reason for training and I only speak for myself here, but I'm sure that others do feel the same is that it does equip you with a certain skill set to help defend yourself if the situation would call for it. I look forward to hearing what others think about this as well.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I'd also like to add to this my belief that anyone who seriously trains with weaponry (whether as Kenjutsu or similar, or with weaponry as part of their overall syllabus) would grow to respect the weapon and therefore be less likely to run around causing mayhem in the streets using their hard earned skills. I can't speak for all schools or students by any means of course but with our own school, if for instance I was to go out and use my art to instigate or escalate a violent encounter out on the streets as opposed to using it purely in self defense, I can almost guarantee that not only would I not be welcome back to train in our organization but I would very quickly find myself with a monkey on my back, so to speak in terms of training in a lot of things/places.

A large part of the reason for training martial arts - and this is a common reason I've heard in my limited time from a range of people training in a variety of systems - is to gain discipline and causing mayhem doesn't gel with that attitude.

On the flip side, from a purely SD point of view, we train with blades or other weapons because in the street, we don't KNOW what we will come up against. This was illustrated perfectly for us last night. We were training group defenses - I was in the middle with 3 aggressors, I did the technique as shown and moved away to disengage when suddenly I was rushed by my instructor launching what seemed to be a wild haymaker... with the adrenaline flowing as it was, I barely managed to get a jam in but his fist still grazed the side of my neck. At this point, without moving, he got me to turn my hand and look at his hand, it was in the same position it would have been if he had been holding a knife. If he had and it wasn't training, very bad news for me. The lesson taken from it was while adrenaline can surge during the initial confrontation, we simply don't know what is going to follow and losing awareness/readiness because the apparent threat seems to be over can have fatal consequences. That I believe, is why we train.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My thought on this is,Yes, we need to train.
Remember the old saying “if you have never been punched in the face how do you know how you will reacted when it happens”? Having a person swing at you with a stick, club, etc. or facing a knife attack for the first time the same principle applies.
If you have never defended against a weapon or been hit by one how do you know what your pain level and reaction will be? Will you panic and freeze or crumble from the pain? Will you know enough to flee if that option is available?
All of our training is to prepare us in the event of an attack. We learn what may occur and have some idea of what to do in such an event.
Learning how to use a stick or knife also gives us some notion as to the many ways such weapons can be used, including angles that an attack may come from.
We learn from practice be that trail and error or preconceived sets of movements. All of the training be it offensive or defensive help to prepare or minds and body for the day that we may be attacked.

 

[pgsmith]

All of the training be it offensive or defensive help to prepare or minds and body for the day that we may be attacked.

Possibly, but you still don't know how you'll react until that day happens. Let's face it, unless a person is in a violent field of work such as law enforcement or personal security, the odds of getting into a fight are incredibly small. I've had a number of life and death fights in my life. All of them happened before I started training. I train in the martial arts because my knees got so bad that the doctor told me I had to give up running and jumping. Without sports, I needed something else to do with myself.

So, in answer to the original question, no, we don't need to train unless we are pursuing a violent career path. Billions of people go through life just fine without ever having engaged in martial arts training of any kind. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't train, or that our training is useless as there are many more benefits to martial arts training than the somewhat dubious 'fighting ability'.

 

[seasoned]

Not only do we need to train, but it must be outcome specific. We are what we train, and that is what we will use.
I can remember training a lot of sparring and tournaments, years back, so when I went out at night, I would wear loose pants so I could kick high.
So, training is a must, but, be aware of what you are training for, because muscle memory will take over, for good or bad.

 

[chinto]

Martial Arts are like any skill set, if you do not train regularly, they will atrophy. So to stay sharp and your skills available you have to train. simple.

 

[harlan]

Yes, I need to train. If I don't I get grumpy. As for the reason, it has nothing to do with self-defense, so I don't require 100% efficacy from that training.

 

[MJS]

Possibly, but you still don't know how you'll react until that day happens. Let's face it, unless a person is in a violent field of work such as law enforcement or personal security, the odds of getting into a fight are incredibly small. I've had a number of life and death fights in my life. All of them happened before I started training. I train in the martial arts because my knees got so bad that the doctor told me I had to give up running and jumping. Without sports, I needed something else to do with myself.

So, in answer to the original question, no, we don't need to train unless we are pursuing a violent career path. Billions of people go through life just fine without ever having engaged in martial arts training of any kind. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't train, or that our training is useless as there are many more benefits to martial arts training than the somewhat dubious 'fighting ability'.

Well, for myself, I consider a fight and self defense, to be 2 seperate things. IMO, most fights, stem from 1 or 2 parties, letting their ego get the better of them, thus engage in a fight to prove who is tougher. SD...well, I can point to a number of things that have happened in some surrounding cities/towns, in which SD skills could've helped. Personally, I dont buy the stats. We hear all the time that crime is down. Really? Thats interesting, because the city just north of where I live, has violent crime on a daily basis. If its not a shooting, its a street robbery. I think the stats are a bit of wishful thinking.

 

[pgsmith]

Well, for myself, I consider a fight and self defense, to be 2 seperate things. IMO, most fights, stem from 1 or 2 parties, letting their ego get the better of them, thus engage in a fight to prove who is tougher.

Totally agree with you there.

SD...well, I can point to a number of things that have happened in some surrounding cities/towns, in which SD skills could've helped.

I'm sure there are a great number of situations where SD skills could have helped. I would be willing to bet there are even more situations where simply using common sense would help a great deal also. However, the OP's question was not should we train but do we need to train. I was merely pointing out that far more of the world's population survives just fine without any sort of martial arts training, therefore it is something that we choose to do, not that we need to do.

 

[Chris Parker]

Do we need to train? If you have a reason to, really. And by that I'm not really referring to self defence, honestly, as that's probably the least of all reasons I'd train in a martial art (as there are many faster and better ways to achieve skill in self defence). So the question comes down to the reason you train.

So, to keep that within the context of the blade work of the FMA's, or any other similar "violence" taught within other arts, why are you training it? Is it to attain skill in killing other people? Is it to attain an understanding of the danger present in the weapon itself? Is it to maintain the traditions of the art? Or is there another reason?

Interestingly, on Black Belt Magazines facebook page today, they had a quote from Stephen Hayes which takes a look at this idea:

Expert Advice: Know Why You’re Training

This sounds obvious, but some martial artists train in a way that doesn’t at all match their stated goals. They say they’re training for self-defense, yet their teachers emphasize things that don’t reflect the realities of fighting.

Know why you’re training. Does it give you a sense of adventure? Are you seeking self-perfection? Do you simply enjoy the thrill of competition or relish a challenge? Is it because you get to spend time with inspiring people?

If you’re clear as to why you train, you’ll be more likely to find the best teachers and lessons.

—Stephen K. Hayes, ninjutsu pioneer

So, to keep that within the context of the blade work of the FMA's, or any other similar "violence" taught within other arts, why are you training it? Is it to attain skill in killing other people? Is it to attain an understanding of the danger present in the weapon itself? Is it to maintain the traditions of the art? Or is there another reason?

With myself, for instance, I train in a wide variety of weapons, both traditional and modern. And I train in them all for a variety of reasons. I train modern knife methods and knife defence to gain a deeper understanding of the weapon and it's tactics, both for my own safety, as well as to provide the best possible education and training to my students, looking to their needs and safety as a primary concept. I would consider it highly irresponsible of me not to, considering my position as their teacher.

When it comes to more traditional weapons, such as sword, I train that for again, a variety of reasons, such as a higher emphasis on timing, distancing, angling and so forth, but dominantly as the study of strategy and mindset. Swordsmanship is actually a very good example for both, when you get down to it. Is it good for self defence? Not immediately, no. But the mindset that you cultivate can be essential, as well as helping in many, many more areas of your life.

So my reasons for training in various weapons, and in the more "violent" aspects of my chosen traditions, is wrapped up in ideas of maintaining the traditions, cultivating the proper mindset, and having a deeper exploration into the strategies and tactics, the details of angling, distance, and timing that such training uniquely allows. In the modern aspects, the main reason is for ensuring that my students get the best possible information and training, ensuring that they have the best chance at handling a real situation, should such an event ever take place. As a result, for me training is absolutely necessary. Just for a range of different reasons.

So, do you really need to train? If you have the reason for it. Whatever that reason is for you.​

 

[lklawson]

Why train in martial arts? Because it's a more fun hobby than stamp collecting and cheaper than racing funny cars. Sure it can, sometimes, be used in SD, but I have guns for that and, to be honest, I don't need SD very often in modern society. I train in Judo because it makes me better in Western Martial Arts. I train in WMA because it's fun and unusual (how many people do you know who teach bowie knife, tomahawk, or military saber?) and because it's a cultural link for me in my own cultural heritage.

Oh, and did I mention that it's fun?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Twin Fist]

preperation is, i would say, 80% of your chances of surviving an attack. The other 20% is luck.

so, no, you dont have to train, you could NOT. And at best, you would have a 20% chance of getting through a rough spot.

I would rather have a potential 100% (80% from training + 20% luck modifier)chance.

 

[Twin Fist]

oh, also?

it is totally cool to smack someone in the head and not go to jail....

 

[Rich Parsons]

Once again Chris and I were thinking along the same lines.

No you do not need to train, unless you need to train for some reason, what ever that reason may be.

I personally enjoy training. I enjoy teaching. I enjoy the motions.

I also enjoy what the motions can do and how I can apply them in my life, not always in a violent way.

 

[Buka]

I don't think there is a need to train when you first start. There may be reasons, a fascination, a way to fitness, or it just may be something to do.

But then it jumps up and gets you. Gets under your skin. "Need" to train? Oh, yeah, baby, it's a serious need.

 

[Balrog]

I say yes, we need to train.

Training gives us an edge. And when the bad guy jumps up out of the weeds, that edge can make the difference between going back to your home or going to a funeral home.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A week or so ago, I started a thread in the FMA section, talking about violence in the FMAs. That thread was sparked by another thread in the Arnis section. My thread was about the way those arts look, as far as violence goes. Many of the Filipino arts, contain alot of blade work, so its only natural that to some, the use of the blade, either for offensive or defensive purpose, may look bad. In that thread, a member made this post:



This post sparked me to start this thread, as I think there were some valid points made. And for the record, I'm not using this post to bash the member or what he said, but simply as a spring board for this new thread.

This member is correct. There is alot of violence with the use of the knife, from an untrained person. People are stabbed all the time, on the street as well as in prisons. So no, it doesnt always take a trained person to inflict damage. My counter to this was that in addition to the knife being used by untrained people, those same people, for years, have also fought empty handed. Not every fight out there is going to involve a weapon. Some people just opt to beat the snot out of someone, bare handed.

So, if these things are supposedly true, then this brings us to the title of this thread....why do we need to train? I commented in that other thread, that training, simply makes us, as well as our skills, better and more refined, than they would be, were we to have no training at all. Yes, anyone can just swing away, and we see that in many of the youtube clips out there...people just swinging away. However, IMHO, training gives us the tools to target specific areas better. It helps us refine our offensive as well as defensive skills. These are just a few of the things, but at this time, I'll open the discussion up for others to give their thoughts.

Really, we don't need to train. Inflicting injury is fairly easy. Consider how easily one can do serious damage to another person. Then compare it to how much training goes into learning how to repair such damage.

Destruction is easy. If you want to destroy things or simply inflict injury, then no real training is needed.

I train for lifestyle and health benefits. I began training in the arts when I was in the single digits. I spent much of my non-school and non-training time cycling. 30 miles a day in high school, not counting the paper rout that I ran on a bicycle in the mornings. I picked up sport fencing and weight training in high school and kendo in my thirties. And I still train daily in kendo and taekwondo.

Thus far I am very pleased with the results.

I have only had occasion to use my MA skills twice since graduating high school, and while I happened to use MA techniques, I could have accomplished what I had accomplished with schoolyard fisticuffs. I live a fairly clean, uninteresting life and I tend to stay away from public settings where people are revved up and alcohol is flowing freely.

Seems to have worked well so far.

So while we don't need to train, life is better because we choose to.

 

[rickster]

Do We Really need To Train?

The answer is NO.

The majority of the population do not train or are non-martial artists

We train, like anything else, because as humans, we desire to focus on something.