Do karate schools in the US not teach dirty fighting any more or do you have to move to Japan?

[Tez3]

I actually agree with your assessment on this topic for the most part. Ultimately though it's up to the instructor.

Most of my previous instructors deal with regulation rules in tournaments. I understand they are in place to keep competitors safe. But that doesn't help in the streets.

It wasn't until I found Krav Maga that I learned one simple rule, "there are no rules when it comes to self defense. " that being said my focus, as an instructor is to teach my students, is to do what it takes. So ultimately it is up to the instructor to get their head s around that.

After all we practice martial arts, a militaristic art.

I have however seen Krav Maga which was basically useless, the instructor having taken an expensive one day course and come away with an 'instructor's diploma'.
In every style there's dross and there's good, stating that only one style is good and teaches self defence correctly is actually wrong. The trick is find a place that does what suits you, for whatever reason you want to train. Not everyone wants to learn to 'kill with one blow' so there's places to accommodate them, there are the ultra macho places that train in combats and are 'ex special forces', there's places for sport, there's places for very food self defence as well as some really pants self defence.
Just because people don't do what you like doing doesn't make them bad, it doesn't make your training to superior to theirs because they don't do what you do.

 

[Star Dragon]

As I've said I believe you are generalising, how many countries have you visited and how many karate cubs/schools? How many organisations? Which styles are you talking about? To say Japanese 'karate' when karate is such a generic term anyway can be misleading. A lot of people say they are doing 'karate' but they aren't.

No worries about that. I refer primarily to the big traditional Japanese styles like Shotokan, Wado-ryu, Goju-ryu, Shito-ryu, Kyokushinkai. I have personally trained in two of these. I visited a number of schools both in Europe and in Japan. Because I'm always curious about how others are doing things, I also watched loads of videos and read the text books of a number of styles.

My conclusion regarding the aforesaid styles (the way they are taught in Japan and nany other places) is that they don't emphasize self-defence. They don't practise much things like kakie, tuite, kyusho, all of which are essential to a true self-defence art. They specialize in long range fighting, the short range (so important in self-defence) is largely neglected, not to mention ground fighting. Sparring is designed for fighting with other practitioners of the same art. The fighting stance is impractical for "anything goes" altercations. And so on.

I am sure that there are some Japanese style schools paying more attention to realistic self-defence, mostly restoring those aspects from the Okinawan origins and often breaking away from the main organizations.

The thing is that when Gichin Funakoshi imported Karate to the Japanese mainland, he deliberately stripped it from its combative aspects. His agenda was to popularize Karate as a method of physical and spiritual strengthening. Herein, he followed the example of his supporter Jigoro Kano, who had turned the self-defence art Jiu-jitsu into the modern sport Judo along similar lines. Eventually, Funakoshi's students completed the transformation of Karate into a tournament sport, much to their master's dismay who hadn't planned to take things that far. The other styles imported to Japan followed the example set by Shotokan in their development there.

I already agreed that my statements are of a somewhat general nature. But they are not overly generalised, imo. If you can name and elaborate on a significant number of Japanese styles and/or schools that are strongly self-defence oriented, I would like to hear it.

 

[Tez3]

So you haven't come across Iain Abernethy's work along with a good many pragmatic instructors who also concentrate on self defence rather than sport? An increasing number of karate clubs/schools here in the UK are working hard at self defence, I train Wado Ryu and certainly here self defence with and without Bunkai is a very big part of training. Many of the karate instructors here are part of the British Combat Association which specialises in self defence rather than sport. You will find on their club listings a lot of traditional karate clubs and instructors. I know that other martial arts organisations here also prioritise self defence.

 

[Star Dragon]

Of course I know Iain Abernethy. In fact, I have most of his books. He is indeed one of those pioneers I mentioned who are bringing the self-defence in the Okinawan fashion back into Karate. However, most schools listed as members of the British Combat Association are not Karate schools. I still think that Karate dojos of that kind are rather rare. But they may be on the rise. And quality goes before quantity.

 

[Tez3]

I did say that you would find karate schools in that list, I did not say that they were all karate schools. There are also a great many karate clubs and schools who also train self defence who aren't in that organisation but if you are determined to be 'right' there's nothing I can say that will change your mind. You are entitled to your opinion of course but not your own facts. I know how many karate places here train self defence, more than enough to not label it rare of course but you obviously know better. I bid you goodnight and farewell.

 

[Sojobo]

Speaking as a Wado-ka, I think we do have the so called "dirty" techniques (in other words realistic combative techniques) built in to our standard training model. Maybe they are not that immediately apparent - but they are there.

Of course, it is down to the individual instructor to realise this with his/her students (as it is with all ryu-ha).

But, on a very surface level - let's look at what Wado-ryu has...

A Naihanchi kata that (guess what) punches the throat!
A Naihanchi kata that is designed to develop short range, sharp, powerful movements.
A Seishan and Chinto Kata that are there to help students harness the energy from an inner circular stance - thus utilising the body's core (the hara if you know about these things) - rather than long range techniques.

A set of comprehensive paired Kata that are designed to develop:

Kuzushi
Ma-ai
Sei-chu-sen
Irimi
Atemi
Nage-waza
Ne-waza

Etc etc., this list goes on - as you would expect from a system that is based on a koryu jujutsu of feudal Japan.

However; Wado-ryu also has a history of producing some of the best WKF style fighters - and I don't think this is a mistake, I also don't think this sort of kumite is the dirty word that so seemed karate "purists" want to make it.

In my experience, the guys that compete in this code (and that includes me) - have a far better understanding of key principles like timing and distance. They have also put themselves under pressure - something that is key in a real life situation.

All that said, if I am asked whether what I teach is self defence...

My answer would be no.

 

[Junbu]

Tez thank you for bring up bunkai I have never thought of fighting as dirty or clean the Yagyu style which I learn has low kicks due to the wearing of armor , we stick with 1600's era and I don't see what could change thru the years however a warrior takes what works and use it Sojobo nice post

 

[Emilee <3]

I hear karate schools in US no longer teach dirty fighting like hitting the persons knees, hitting the persons balls, head twisting,knee strikes to person head, gauging out eyes, choke holds, poking or squeezing eyes, strike to throat, taking your elbow and hitting the person head, holds and chokes so on.

That to get this you have to move to Japan or find a Okinawan type Karate school in US.

I know many Karate schools out side of Japan in the US no longer teach take downs, throws and holds.

That karate schools in US are for kids and teens now and sport schools and tournaments not self defense.

We learn all that in my taekwondo class and more, including breaking someone's finger in half if they like to grab your shirt a lot.

 

[Steve]

We learn all that in my taekwondo class and more, including breaking someone's finger in half if they like to grab your shirt a lot.

You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt? That's a cool trick. How do you do It?

 

[Emilee <3]

You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt? That's a cool trick. How do you do It?

No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.

 

[Steve]

No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.

Ah. Okay.

 

[Whitespace]

I am a student and instructor of isshin-ryu karate. In my specific school we teach these techniques and as you say "dirty" fighting as one of our primary self defense techniques. There are schools that focus on the sparring side or sport side of karate witch focuses on scoring points rather than self defense. You will find mixed results with your thread here.

 

[donald1]

You can break a guys finger in half with your shirt? That's a cool trick. How do you do It?

I dont know about tshirt but I remember my instructor saying to one of the students if your thumb gets caught on gi sleeve it could be broken (the chances if that happening are quite unlikly but technically is possible...)

 

[Whitespace]

I dont know about tshirt but I remember my instructor saying to one of the students if your thumb gets caught on gi sleeve it could be broken (the chances if that happening are quite unlikly but technically is possible...)

That is quite possible. It has never happened to me or most of my students our Karate School has been around for over 20 years and in that time (I asked today) our main instructor told me that it was very possible and has happened to one of our students years ago.

 

[Tez3]

Getting the tip of your belt in the eye is possibly worse especially when you are sparring, sore eye, tears down your face, blurry vision, all very NOT GOOD.

 

[Whitespace]

Getting the tip of your belt in the eye is possibly worse especially when you are sparring, sore eye, tears down your face, blurry vision, all very NOT GOOD.

Very true happens all the time too.

 

[donald1]

You people are going to make it impossible for me to sleep tonight... im going to be sitting there thinking *gasp* I dont want there belts poking my eyes! (Ill have to wear an eye patch and kids will make fun of me and call me a pirate... or some weirdo with an eye patch)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No, you don't use your shirt, sorry if the way I worded that was confusing! You know how some people like to grab other people by their shirts? If you have to defend against then you can grab their finger and break it in half. It can also prevent them from punching.

That's impressive. I doubt I have the strength to just break someones finger in half. Twist/pull it and put them in a lot of pain, yeah, but I can't imagine breaking a finger that easily.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's impressive. I doubt I have the strength to just break someones finger in half. Twist/pull it and put them in a lot of pain, yeah, but I can't imagine breaking a finger that easily.

When people refer to breaking the finger in this manner, it's almost always dislocated, not broken. That doesn't require strength, just leverage.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When people refer to breaking the finger in this manner, it's almost always dislocated, not broken. That doesn't require strength, just leverage.

That makes more sense. Had a different connotation in my head. I can see it, but don't ever think I'll try it out. Can't imagine a situation when there isn't a better option.