Do "brute force" techniques like haymakers and the double axe handle require precision and skill?

[Bullsherdog]

In martial arts and fighting sports, the popular stereotype that someone who relies on brute force lacks any skill and precision esp crude techniques like lifting someone above your head and throwing them in front of you or doing a hammer fist on the top of someone's skull. Basically the popular trope esp in movies, comics, and anime/manga is that if you rely on something like a double axe handle, no skill and precision is required while someone really skilled doesn't need any strength because he uses precision techniques like spear thrust to the neck.

This stereotype was so prevalent before the rise of MMA that I seen gyms and dojos in the West at least mock someone for preferring to use simplistic brute attacks like stomp kicks to the stomach used by Leonidas in the well scene at the start of 300.

What brings me this question is the fact in Asia not only are there style relying on crude unrefined attacks as basic staples such as Mongolian wrestling and Muay Thai but even styles we often associate with graceful precision and minimal strength (and actually do) such as Tai Chi and TKD actually do teach brute force simplistic stuff requiring strength like shoving a guy to the ground using just your arm muscles and the strength you have and squeezing their arms so hard it makes someone submit to you out of pain.

So I am curious, is something as "brutish" and strength-based as slamming someone on the ground or knocking a person's head with a double axe handle something that requires some skill, precision, and proper physical mechanics?

 

[skribs]

Double axe-handle is a flashy move in WWE or Star Trek, but isn't much of a power-generating move.

Haymakers are a low-probability move that leave you open for counter-attack. If you want to make it work, you have to know when to strike.
Picking up someone and slamming them down, or shoving them down, is a strength based move. But anyone with grappling experience is going to avoid being shoved down, and is going to be a lot harder to simply grab and pick up if you don't have the training to back it up.

Physicality helps, and weight classes exist for a reason. But technique is also important.

 

[jobo]

In martial arts and fighting sports, the popular stereotype that someone who relies on brute force lacks any skill and precision esp crude techniques like lifting someone above your head and throwing them in front of you or doing a hammer fist on the top of someone's skull. Basically the popular trope esp in movies, comics, and anime/manga is that if you rely on something like a double axe handle, no skill and precision is required while someone really skilled doesn't need any strength because he uses precision techniques like spear thrust to the neck.

This stereotype was so prevalent before the rise of MMA that I seen gyms and dojos in the West at least mock someone for preferring to use simplistic brute attacks like stomp kicks to the stomach used by Leonidas in the well scene at the start of 300.

What brings me this question is the fact in Asia not only are there style relying on crude unrefined attacks as basic staples such as Mongolian wrestling and Muay Thai but even styles we often associate with graceful precision and minimal strength (and actually do) such as Tai Chi and TKD actually do teach brute force simplistic stuff requiring strength like shoving a guy to the ground using just your arm muscles and the strength you have and squeezing their arms so hard it makes someone submit to you out of pain.

So I am curious, is something as "brutish" and strength-based as slamming someone on the ground or knocking a person's head with a double axe handle something that requires some skill, precision, and proper physical mechanics?

all physical coordination is a SKILL, you didnt have it when you were born you developed it.

strength is a skill of inter muscle coordination,

someone who has greater inter muscle coordination than you is more skilled and for any like for like comparison, certainly stronger

does picking someone up and dropping them on their head take more or less skill than spear handing them in the throat ? id say more, but its certainly not less ( just different). i can spear hand just about anyone in the throat, but there a distinct limit to who i can pick up and drop on their head

 

[drop bear]

Haymakers work you just have to do them right.
And yes it takes skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So I am curious, is something as "brutish" and strength-based as slamming someone on the ground or knocking a person's head with a double axe handle something that requires some skill, precision, and proper physical mechanics?

Strange way to see punches and kicks as "brutish". If I'm in a fight then pretty much everything I do is going to be "brutish". Kicks will be hard, punches will be hard, slams will be hard. Here's my thinking. If I'm in a fight and I tap my attacker with a punch or kick that does no damage, then I've just wasted a punch and I may not ever get an opportunity to land another. In addition, I've just boosted my attackers confidence. He may now think things like:

• I have weak punches that are of no real danger to him
• I'm scared to fight back
• I have no real skill or power.
• He can beat me if he smothers my weak strikes
• I can get out of his weak grip

These are things I don't want my attacker to think. Even if I'm in competition, I want the first strike that lands, to be so hard, that he worries and stresses about getting hit or kicked again.. I want my opponent to worry about being hit by me, I want that worry to occupy him, because not he's less focused on trying to hit me.

So to say "brutish" makes me ask, is there any other type of strike? I don't train any of my techniques to be soft.

For the question about skill? Everything takes skill even the simple stuff. People without basic punching skills then to appear to have flailing punches.

 

[dvcochran]

In martial arts and fighting sports, the popular stereotype that someone who relies on brute force lacks any skill and precision esp crude techniques like lifting someone above your head and throwing them in front of you or doing a hammer fist on the top of someone's skull. Basically the popular trope esp in movies, comics, and anime/manga is that if you rely on something like a double axe handle, no skill and precision is required while someone really skilled doesn't need any strength because he uses precision techniques like spear thrust to the neck.

This stereotype was so prevalent before the rise of MMA that I seen gyms and dojos in the West at least mock someone for preferring to use simplistic brute attacks like stomp kicks to the stomach used by Leonidas in the well scene at the start of 300.

What brings me this question is the fact in Asia not only are there style relying on crude unrefined attacks as basic staples such as Mongolian wrestling and Muay Thai but even styles we often associate with graceful precision and minimal strength (and actually do) such as Tai Chi and TKD actually do teach brute force simplistic stuff requiring strength like shoving a guy to the ground using just your arm muscles and the strength you have and squeezing their arms so hard it makes someone submit to you out of pain.

So I am curious, is something as "brutish" and strength-based as slamming someone on the ground or knocking a person's head with a double axe handle something that requires some skill, precision, and proper physical mechanics?

I have always held the belief that we are born with a deep innate inclination to 'fight'. We come out of the womb kick and screaming. There can be no argument that even within the same family, some grow to be bigger/stronger, some more coordinated or athletic, some mentally stronger/quicker. That said, almost any skill, natural or learned, can be improved with practice.
If you take two people of identical physical/mental attributes and one of them spends years of training in grappling, the probability of that person being much better at slamming someone to the ground is naturally much higher.
This assumes Everything is in an identically controlled environment. As soon as you start adding real world variables things can rapidly change. Meaning, the untrained person may overcome the trained person if tangible things like intent, desire, rage, fear, come into play.
It is not an easy question to answer. I don't think the results would be the same 10 out of 10 times.

 

[frank raud]

How do

shoving a guy to the ground using just your arm muscles and the strength you have and squeezing their arms so hard it makes someone submit to you out of pain.

? I s this in Tai Chi or TKD? Examples would be awesome, particularly the arm squeezing.

 

[Martial D]

In martial arts and fighting sports, the popular stereotype that someone who relies on brute force lacks any skill and precision esp crude techniques like lifting someone above your head and throwing them in front of you or doing a hammer fist on the top of someone's skull. Basically the popular trope esp in movies, comics, and anime/manga is that if you rely on something like a double axe handle, no skill and precision is required while someone really skilled doesn't need any strength because he uses precision techniques like spear thrust to the neck.

This stereotype was so prevalent before the rise of MMA that I seen gyms and dojos in the West at least mock someone for preferring to use simplistic brute attacks like stomp kicks to the stomach used by Leonidas in the well scene at the start of 300.

What brings me this question is the fact in Asia not only are there style relying on crude unrefined attacks as basic staples such as Mongolian wrestling and Muay Thai but even styles we often associate with graceful precision and minimal strength (and actually do) such as Tai Chi and TKD actually do teach brute force simplistic stuff requiring strength like shoving a guy to the ground using just your arm muscles and the strength you have and squeezing their arms so hard it makes someone submit to you out of pain.

So I am curious, is something as "brutish" and strength-based as slamming someone on the ground or knocking a person's head with a double axe handle something that requires some skill, precision, and proper physical mechanics?

Double axe handle? Ok captain Kirk. You can't generate real power that way. That's a Hollywood move.

No skill to pick someone up off their feet? Maybe if you outweigh them by 150 pounds, or the other guy is not resisting. Otherwise this takes quite a lot of skill.

Mui Thai crude and unrefined? LOL what? They have some of the crispest technique you'll ever see.

You should probably learn some basics before you start asking red herring questions based on rather strange and wild assumptions.

 

[Martial D]

How do
? I s this in Tai Chi or TKD? Examples would be awesome, particularly the arm squeezing.

No. It was probably in some movie though.

 

[jobo]

I have always held the belief that we are born with a deep innate inclination to 'fight'. We come out of the womb kick and screaming. There can be no argument that even within the same family, some grow to be bigger/stronger, some more coordinated or athletic, some mentally stronger/quicker. That said, almost any skill, natural or learned, can be improved with practice.
If you take two people of identical physical/mental attributes and one of them spends years of training in grappling, the probability of that person being much better at slamming someone to the ground is naturally much higher.
This assumes Everything is in an identically controlled environment. As soon as you start adding real world variables things can rapidly change. Meaning, the untrained person may overcome the trained person if tangible things like intent, desire, rage, fear, come into play.
It is not an easy question to answer. I don't think the results would be the same 10 out of 10 times.

no, the outcome of most reproduction on this planet, means your not a clone of a parent or of your siblings, each one of use has unique dna and are therefore ourselves unique. even '' identical'' twins have slight physical differences

there will always therefore be differences between siblings, that stretch from very little to quite a lot depend on the mix you pick up from your parents

there's a case for saying this is a pre- prescribed limit on your potential, that is probably true,( definitely true for some aspects, you can only grow so tall) but as only the smallest % of the population ever reach the limits of their potential, its completely academic to most of us.

unless there's a considerable difference in the genetic mix, then the strongest brother will be the one who trains hardest, the most coordinated one will be the one who trains coordination etc etc

since early adulthood, i've always been above averagely strong for a male, my younger sister well above averagely strong for a female and my youngest sister cant get the top of a bottle of milk, but there was a time when she was quite strong, but then she got a husband and hasn't walked more than 200 yards in twenty years,

 

[dvcochran]

no, the outcome of most reproduction on this planet, means your not a clone of a parent or of your siblings, each one of use has unique dna and are therefore ourselves unique. even '' identical'' twins have slight physical differences

there will always therefore be differences between siblings, that stretch from very little to quite a lot depend on the mix you pick up from your parents

there's a case for saying this is a pre- prescribed limit on your potential, that is probably true,( definitely true for some aspects, you can only grow so tall) but as only the smallest % of the population ever reach the limits of their potential, its completely academic to most of us.

unless there's a considerable difference in the genetic mix, then the strongest brother will be the one who trains hardest, the most coordinated one will be the one who trains coordination etc etc

since early adulthood, i've always been above averagely strong for a male, my younger sister well above averagely strong for a female and my youngest sister cant get the top of a bottle of milk, but there was a time when she was quite strong, but then she got a husband and hasn't walked more than 200 yards in twenty years,

That is EXACTLY what I just said. Didn't you read the post at all?

Or did you just want to be offensive as usual?

 

[jobo]

That is EXACTLY what I just said. Didn't you read the post at all?

Or did you just want to be offensive as usual?

no it's clearly not EXACTLY what you just said, and it disagrees with you main point

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Double axe handle? Ok captain Kirk. You can't generate real power that way. That's a Hollywood move.

No skill to pick someone up off their feet? Maybe if you outweigh them by 150 pounds, or the other guy is not resisting. Otherwise this takes quite a lot of skill.

Mui Thai crude and unrefined? LOL what? They have some of the crispest technique you'll ever see.

You should probably learn some basics before you start asking red herring questions based on rather strange and wild assumptions.

Man, I wanted to “agree” twice on that one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no, the outcome of most reproduction on this planet, means your not a clone of a parent or of your siblings, each one of use has unique dna and are therefore ourselves unique. even '' identical'' twins have slight physical differences

there will always therefore be differences between siblings, that stretch from very little to quite a lot depend on the mix you pick up from your parents

there's a case for saying this is a pre- prescribed limit on your potential, that is probably true,( definitely true for some aspects, you can only grow so tall) but as only the smallest % of the population ever reach the limits of their potential, its completely academic to most of us.

unless there's a considerable difference in the genetic mix, then the strongest brother will be the one who trains hardest, the most coordinated one will be the one who trains coordination etc etc

since early adulthood, i've always been above averagely strong for a male, my younger sister well above averagely strong for a female and my youngest sister cant get the top of a bottle of milk, but there was a time when she was quite strong, but then she got a husband and hasn't walked more than 200 yards in twenty years,

There’s a reasonable argument that the limit affects even not “full potential” results. If you think about what it takes to reach, say 80% of potential, that effort appears to be proportional.

 

[dvcochran]

no it's clearly not EXACTLY what you just said, and it disagrees with you main point

Yep, it is my friend. Just read it.

 

[drop bear]

Human potential is weird. There is an article I couldn't find but it went along the lines the the 4 minute mile was this unbeatable mark until it was beaten.

Then it got beaten about 4 times or something by different people. And so just changing the script from cant to can raised the level of human potential.

Extremes of Human Potential

 

[Buka]

That is EXACTLY what I just said. Didn't you read the post at all?

Or did you just want to be offensive as usual?

Although it is what you said, you stated it in American English, not British. Much, apparently, is lost in translation.

 

[drop bear]

Although it is what you said, you stated it in American English, not British. Much, apparently, is lost in translation.

Speak ,Stralyan.

 

[pdg]

What is a double axe handle?


I have a single handed axe, somewhat like a hatchet - and I have a double handed felling axe. Putting two handles on either of them would make them very awkward to use...

I've not tried them on people, but if their performance against wood is a reliable indication they'd cause significant damage

 

[drop bear]

What is a double axe handle?


I have a single handed axe, somewhat like a hatchet - and I have a double handed felling axe. Putting two handles on either of them would make them very awkward to use...

I've not tried them on people, but if their performance against wood is a reliable indication they'd cause significant damage

Pretty sure it is that first shot kirk throws.