Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?

[ShotoNoob]

I fail to understand how time spent perfecting technique will be trumped by time spent swinging kettlebells..

Aikido and Judo - Interview with Gozo Shioda and Masahiko Kimura

Interviewer: Shioda sensei, were you doing some special kind of conditioning?

Shioda: No – in Aikido, in order not to create stagnation in the body, you mustn’t build up your muscles. However, I didn’t understand that when I was young, so I would hide from Ueshiba sensei and lift weights. When he found out I’d really get scolded. Of course it’s natural to want to make your body strong when you’re young, and logic comes later. Anyway, you should just train as much as you can. I trained everyday from five in the morning until nine at night! I think that kind of period is important to have when you’re young

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Aikido proper is a pure internal art. All the musculature development is meant to develop & support maximum, then optimum action from ki power. Weight lifting is in the least superfluous & in the worst detrimental to damaging against that ideal. Exercise of the natural body in tandem with traditional Aikido practices can produce of the physical strength required...
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The reason you never see Aikido in MMA is that it's about the most difficult traditional martial art style to master. We've got loads of MT posts, posters on about Aikido & I seriously doubt they are doing the true art....

 

[Tez3]

I wonder when people are actually going to get the idea of what MMA actually is and stop expecting to see individual arts in it? It's mixed, it says so in the title, you may see a quick flash of Aiki, of TKD of karate but it's been mixed up to make a whole fighting system, stop expecting fighters to be using each art singly. A three minute round fight doesn't start with a fighter 'doing' 30 secs of TKD followed by 30 sec of BJJ followed by 30 sec of karate followed by......... You won't be able to specifically pick out techniques always, sometimes you can identify a kick or a ground move but really stop seeing it as individual styles and start seeing it as MMA. So yes you may well see something from Aiki but it will be used quickly, as pat of a whole along with other techniques from other styles.
The thing is ...we mix it up...that's why the argument X style isn't in MMA or you can't use Y style is a nonsense, if a fighter can use a technique it will be in the mix wherever it comes from.

 

[Xue Sheng]

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Aikido proper is a pure internal art. All the musculature development is meant to develop & support maximum, then optimum action from ki power. Weight lifting is in the least superfluous & in the worst detrimental to damaging against that ideal. Exercise of the natural body in tandem with traditional Aikido practices can produce of the physical strength required...
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The reason you never see Aikido in MMA is that it's about the most difficult traditional martial art style to master. We've got loads of MT posts, posters on about Aikido & I seriously doubt they are doing the true art....

Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can be detrimental

 

[Hanzou]

I wonder when people are actually going to get the idea of what MMA actually is and stop expecting to see individual arts in it? It's mixed, it says so in the title, you may see a quick flash of Aiki, of TKD of karate but it's been mixed up to make a whole fighting system, stop expecting fighters to be using each art singly. A three minute round fight doesn't start with a fighter 'doing' 30 secs of TKD followed by 30 sec of BJJ followed by 30 sec of karate followed by......... You won't be able to specifically pick out techniques always, sometimes you can identify a kick or a ground move but really stop seeing it as individual styles and start seeing it as MMA. So yes you may well see something from Aiki but it will be used quickly, as pat of a whole along with other techniques from other styles.
The thing is ...we mix it up...that's why the argument X style isn't in MMA or you can't use Y style is a nonsense, if a fighter can use a technique it will be in the mix wherever it comes from.

However, we do still see very clear examples of individual arts within MMA. For example, we still see Bjj exponents performing very clear Bjj techniques. Ronda Rousey is performing very clear Judo techniques within MMA. A spinning back kick from TKD, a clinch and knee combo from Muay Thai, or a leg kick from Kyokushin, are all examples of individual arts, and we're still seeing them all the time.

After almost 25 years, I think its time to simply admit that some styles simply aren't designed for fighting.

 

[Tez3]

However, we do still see very clear examples of individual arts within MMA. For example, we still see Bjj exponents performing very clear Bjj techniques. Ronda Rousey is performing very clear Judo techniques within MMA. A spinning back kick from TKD, a clinch and knee combo from Muay Thai, or a leg kick from Kyokushin, are all examples of individual arts, and we're still seeing them all the time.

After almost 25 years, I think its time to simply admit that some styles simply aren't designed for fighting.

I did say that sometimes you see techniques from some styles but again you miss the point, you are still talking about whole styles. and just because you don't recognise something doesn't mean it's not there. Or perhaps some people just don't see things because they don't want to.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can be detrimental

post #63 Edit

Sorry, I am not into quoting me, but apparently my fingers is stupid and my proof reading is not much better, and of course I waited to long so I could not edit it.....here is what it was supposed to say

Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would not agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can be detrimental.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread

 

[Hanzou]

I did say that sometimes you see techniques from some styles but again you miss the point, you are still talking about whole styles. and just because you don't recognise something doesn't mean it's not there. Or perhaps some people just don't see things because they don't want to.

But again, you do see whole styles in MMA. Rousey was clearly utilizing her Judo background in her early MMA fights, and Ryan Hall was very clearly using Bjj in his qualifying fight in TUF. Are we ever going to see a guy entering the UFC using Aikido in a similar fashion?

If not, why?

 

[JowGaWolf]

For some from the outside - everything seems not too hard until the try it. I mean I lift a far amount - but the calisthenics (body weight) exercises work you slightly differently than iron and I appreciate both. Also many people say yoga "is easy" and a girls thing - and I can tell you it wipe you out. But I still hate jogging... its hard for me as a big guy, but necessary for endurance in MA class.

Our instructors like to include various conditioning work before class. Including the Tabbata stuff that is all the rage these days.

You benefit from Multiple exercise types in MA.

"Yoga is easy" is one of the things I had to learn the hard way.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Thing about internal arts and weightlifting, not Aikido, but internal, Chen Xiaowang (Chen Taijiquan) would to agree with you. Per Chen Xiaowang, weightlifting is fine once you have developed unity between upper and lower it can actually be helpful. However prior to that it can be detrimental

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Thanks Xue. From a general perspective, I train an 'externally-oriented' art. So internals is more of a mystery to me. Nonetheless. The internal strength is developed by the modern traditional karates, and is explicitly a base ability in them, as in all TMA.
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My knowledge of tai chi, like internal arts, is that while muscular development occurs from the nature of the exercises, it is really the cultivation of chi and how chi conditions the bodily organs & structure internally that gives rise to its great, in a sense, physically unstoppable power.... way too difficult for me.
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At the same time, the heavy, physical muscular strength & force employed in Shotokan and other like styles of traditional karate can work against chi propagation, and impede or inhibit it's benefits & effects... Rigid , tense, stiff, aggressive sequential movement can build muscular strength, etc., works against maximum chi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

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Thanks Xue. From a general perspective, I train an 'externally-oriented' art. So internals is more of a mystery to me. Nonetheless. The internal strength is developed by the modern traditional karates, and is explicitly a base ability in them, as in all TMA.
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My knowledge of tai chi, like internal arts, is that while muscular development occurs from the nature of the exercises, it is really the cultivation of chi and how chi conditions the bodily organs & structure internally that gives rise to its great, in a sense, physically unstoppable power.... way too difficult for me.
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At the same time, the heavy, physical muscular strength & force employed in Shotokan and other like styles of traditional karate can work against chi propagation, and impede or inhibit it's benefits & effects... Rigid , tense, stiff, aggressive sequential movement can build muscular strength, etc., works against maximum chi.

Old CMA saying; Internal goes to external, external goes to internal. Meaning, if trained properly you end up in the same place. If trained improperly you end up old, unhealthy and possibly crippled.

 

[Sapphire]

I just think weightlifting is kinda boring.

I plan on doing a little bit just to improve my looks once my tendinitis cools off a bit (because inflammation, get it?), but really, if you think about TMAs historically, all of their "exercise" was farming. And even though a lot of jobs have become easier over the years, farming is still damn hard work. You work on a horse farm shoveling the stalls for a few hours, followed by throwing hay bails, then running the weed eater for a few more hours after that, working from sun up to sun down, you're going to be strong in no time. Now imagine that, thousands of years ago, where you also had to walk multiple miles to get water and the bails weren't bails. Running with a bucket of water on each arm might be a movie cliché but it's legitimate. Also, if a farmer had poor shoveling technique, or poor water carrying technique, that farmer didn't get hurt and take a day off, he starved.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also, if a farmer had poor shoveling technique, or poor water carrying technique, that farmer didn't get hurt and take a day off, he starved.

Shoveling seems like such an easy thing to do, no sweat, no technique needed. But that is so wrong. Shoveling takes a great deal of technique and people often find out that they were doing it the wrong way before the day ends. I bet children who worked on the farms understood the value of technique at an early age since there are many things on a farm that require good technique.
Common Snow Shoveling Injuries
"The research team looked at snow shoveling injuries and medical emergencies in the U.S. from 1990 to 2006 using information from a national database. During that time, about 195,000 people in the U.S. were treated in a hospital emergency room for a snow shoveling injury."
Source:

 

[Chrisoro]

Didn't read the whole thread, but won't need to as I got the answer ready anyway.

Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?

The same reason that many weightlifters look down on traditional martial arts, or why mma-practitioners look down on tma-practitioners (and visa versa), and et cetera ad infinitum: It all comes down to a lack of insight into what the other parts are doing, and a cognitive bias that makes one prefer what oneself has put down a lot of time into and is most familiar with.

 

[elder999]

Didn't read the whole thread, but won't need to as I got the answer ready anyway.

Why do many traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?

The same reason that many weightlifters look down on traditional martial arts, or why mma-practitioners look down on tma-practitioners (and visa versa), and et cetera ad infinitum: It all comes down to a lack of insight into what the other parts are doing, and a cognitive bias that makes one prefer what oneself has put down a lot of time into and is most familiar with.

If you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the title should have been:

Why do most traditional martial artists INSIST on some weighlifting (some even calling it NECESSARY)?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Old CMA saying; Internal goes to external, external goes to internal. Meaning, if trained properly you end up in the same place. If trained improperly you end up old, unhealthy and possibly crippled.

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To me, TMU, the internal arts are just on a different plane. Which I described earlier. Otherwise, QFT.

 

[Chrisoro]

If you'd read the whole thread, you'd see that the title should have been:

Why do most traditional martial artists INSIST on some weighlifting (some even calling it NECESSARY)?

Yes, but that is a completely different question, and it still does not invalidate (or even contrast with) the original question. There is no logical contradiction between stating that most traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, and at the same time asking why many traditional martial artists (unless you decide to define "many" in an absolute way) look down on weight lifting. I have seen several examples of (for example) different Wing Chun and other wushu instructors saying that big muscles hinders effective punching, because of some psuedo-scientific reasoning, and their students echoing this. The fact that a lot of other traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, doesn't make these people cease to exists. And in that light, I stand by my original answer.

 

[elder999]

. There is no logical contradiction between stating that most traditional martial artists insists on some weightlifting, and at the same time asking why many traditional martial artists (unless you decide to define "many" in an absolute way) look down on weight lifting.

Do ANY traditional martial artists look down on weighlifting (some even calling it EASY)?

 

[Sapphire]

Shoveling seems like such an easy thing to do, no sweat, no technique needed. But that is so wrong. Shoveling takes a great deal of technique and people often find out that they were doing it the wrong way before the day ends. I bet children who worked on the farms understood the value of technique at an early age since there are many things on a farm that require good technique.
Common Snow Shoveling Injuries
"The research team looked at snow shoveling injuries and medical emergencies in the U.S. from 1990 to 2006 using information from a national database. During that time, about 195,000 people in the U.S. were treated in a hospital emergency room for a snow shoveling injury."
Source:

Thank you. I have a friend who used to work in overnight re-stock at the grocery store. His coworkers were all 50-something-year-old men who have all had back surgeries and been on every other pain medication available because they all lift with their back. My friend actually got picked on by these same men for using his knees to do heavy lifting. He was being made fun of for using proper technique to prevent injury because he looked funny squatting!

Also, my brother used to work on a large horse farm. The owner of the farm is in his late 70's and he raised his son to take over the farm. His son is roughly 40 now and taught my brother all of the farming jobs. My brother and three or four other guys would shovel out the stalls every morning with a pitch fork. But G'Pa? One pitchfork took too long, so this old man decided to weld two fork heads together. Nobody at the farm can lift the fork properly except G'Pa and his son. The young 20-somethings that went to the gym and played football in high school? Nah. Only the guys who had used the proper technique for decades.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thank you. I have a friend who used to work in overnight re-stock at the grocery store. His coworkers were all 50-something-year-old men who have all had back surgeries and been on every other pain medication available because they all lift with their back. My friend actually got picked on by these same men for using his knees to do heavy lifting. He was being made fun of for using proper technique to prevent injury because he looked funny squatting!

Also, my brother used to work on a large horse farm. The owner of the farm is in his late 70's and he raised his son to take over the farm. His son is roughly 40 now and taught my brother all of the farming jobs. My brother and three or four other guys would shovel out the stalls every morning with a pitch fork. But G'Pa? One pitchfork took too long, so this old man decided to weld two fork heads together. Nobody at the farm can lift the fork properly except G'Pa and his son. The young 20-somethings that went to the gym and played football in high school? Nah. Only the guys who had used the proper technique for decades.

I truly believe that technique is everything.

 

[7BallZ]

Not directly related to this thread but since it deals with weightlifting I thought I'd post here. Can anyone help me with this?

Did traditional Muay Thai do any weight training before the introduction of Western equipment?