What skill level it takes to make a technique work

[Oily Dragon]

BJJ and karate are two different animals. In BJJ it's not uncommon for a position to be held for some time so maybe only 4 - 7 techniques executed (though there is some tugging for position) in a minute. In fact, I've seen just one position held for over a minute.

In karate competition it's not uncommon for 10-20 techniques executed in that same minute. It's a much faster pace in a striking art than a grappling one. So, in that kind of flurry it's more likely a beginner's stray strike will land effectively than a BJJ beginner's submission move being set.

You know, I used to think that, but BJJ guys do use karate like strikes, and often, just at really short range. Grip fighting on the gi, etc.

BJJ moves are really nuanced. Any single technique has a lot of little details. "Tugging for position" now there's an interesting thought. Talk about infinite variations.

 

[Darren]

You know, I used to think that, but BJJ guys do use karate like strikes, and often, just at really short range. Grip fighting on the gi, etc.

BJJ moves are really nuanced. Any single technique has a lot of little details. "Tugging for position" now there's an interesting thought. Talk about infinite variations.

By my third BJJ class I learned never to use all your strength, by my 6 BJJ class I changed tap early and tap often to tap very early and tap very often!!!!!!

 

[skribs]

BJJ and karate are two different animals. In BJJ it's not uncommon for a position to be held for some time so maybe only 4 - 7 techniques executed (though there is some tugging for position) in a minute. In fact, I've seen just one position held for over a minute.

In karate competition it's not uncommon for 10-20 techniques executed in that same minute. It's a much faster pace in a striking art than a grappling one. So, in that kind of flurry it's more likely a beginner's stray strike will land effectively than a BJJ beginner's submission move being set.

And, while those strikes may be in combination, they are also entirely independent of each other. They can be thrown at any target in any order.

In BJJ, the sequence of movements to accomplish a given goal (i.e. sweep from guard) is much more sequential. If you miss a step, you will probably not have the right grip or leverage; or you will leave a big opening for your opponent to reset or counter.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is a thought I've had while training TKD and HKD, and has become more solidified since I've started taking BJJ. The amount of skill it takes in order to make a technique work, based on the type of martial art:

• In Striking (TKD), you can make a technique work at any skill level.
• In Competitive Grappling (BJJ), you can make a technique work at any skill level, provided your opponent is of equal or lesser skill level (or lets you do it).
• In Technical Grappling (HKD), you can make a technique work only at a high skill level.

I understand the point you're trying to make, however I think your analysis needs to be a bit more nuanced and granular in order to draw any useful conclusions. Here's how I would break it down ...

• For a given technique, what is the minimum skill level necessary for it to possibly work in any realistic situation?
• For a given technique, what are the minimum physical attributes necessary for it to possibly work in any realistic situation?
• For a given technique, what is the minimum/maximum differential in skill and attributes between you and your opponent to have a reasonable chance of having it work? (In other words, do you have to be twice as good as your opponent or could you have a chance of landing it on someone who is twice as skilled as you are?
• For a given technique, what are the minimum skill and attributes and min/max differentials necessary to have it be a high-percentage, reliable move?
• For a given technique, what are specific contexts and situations where it could be reliably applicable? (This is sort of a side tangent, but I'll get to why I include it in a bit.)

Some examples ...

A rear hand power punch (cross/reverse punch/haymaker/overhand right/rear hook/etc).

Completely untrained people throw these all the time, based on instinct or watching others. Often they land and inflict damage. Sometimes they even cause a knockout. Obviously an unskilled punch isn't as effective as a skilled one, but the minimum level for potential effectiveness is pretty low.

It's possible to land a punch on someone who is more skilled if you are determined and willing to take some shots yourself on the way in. There is a certain level of skill differential beyond which you just won't be able to land anything on your opponent, but it takes a much more skilled adversary for you to have no chance of landing any punches.

There's also a point at which an opponent's physical attributes are just so beyond you that the basic power punch becomes ineffective. A 120 pound coach potato probably isn't going to do more than annoy a 240 pound athlete with a punch. But in general a power punch can have some useful effect even on opponents who have some degree of physical superiority.

A spinning wheel kick to the head.

This requires a decent amount of practice and coordination and flexibility to have any chance at doing anything, even against an opponent who stands there with their hands down and lets you take a free shot. Without that minimum level of skill and attributes, you're likely going to just fall over or pull a muscle or just look like a doofus while your opponent laughs.

When you reach the minimum level of skill and athleticism to make the move work, you still need superior skill or speed compared to your opponent in order to land the kick, because of the distance the kick has to travel and the fact that you have to turn your back.

However once you move sufficiently past that minimum level of functionality and reach a high degree of speed, accuracy, and timing, then it becomes possible to land the kick with a reasonable degree of success on opponents of your own level, because the deceptiveness of the kick matters more than the extra split second it takes to land compared to a punch.

A rear naked choke.

In a grappling match, there are a ton of mini-battles of position that have to be fought and won before you can even attempt the choke. That's why you won't often see a white belt choke out a purple belt in BJJ - the odds of the white belt winning all those little victories in a row against a more skilled opponent are vanishingly small. However, if you have a free shot at the choke, such as grabbing an unsuspecting person from behind? Once again, untrained people do this every day in the real world and can often choke a bigger or more skilled person unconscious. Learning how to make the choke even more effective with some technical details doesn't take very long.

A berimbolo. (Click the link for those who don't know what that is.)

I've been training BJJ for 23 years and I'm a 2nd degree black belt. I know how to do a berimbolo (if I take the time to think about it). I won't try one in rolling even against a new white belt because I haven't spent the time and practice to develop the minimum skill to be functional with it. I'll do other techniques that I make up on the spot or that I just saw on video, but the berimbolo just requires a higher degree of specific training.

A standing outwards twisting wrist lock. (Kote gaeshi or omote gyaku or whatever it's called in your system)

This requires a fair degree of practice and skill to work effectively even against a cooperative training partner. Against a tough opponent who is seriously trying to take your head off? Almost impossible. However it does have potential real world application as sort of the grappling equivalent of a sucker punch against someone who is in pre-fight posturing mode. I've also used the threat of it in sparring to force a reaction that opens up something else that I want. (This gets to the issue of context that I mentioned earlier.)

Cutting or stabbing someone with a knife or a sword.

As I discussed recently in another thread, a completely untrained person can inflict potentially lethal damage with a blade. They can even potentially do this to someone who is much more skilled with their own blade (although they will likely be cut or stabbed themselves in the process). It takes quite a large skill differential to reliably injure someone in a sword or knife fight and not run the risk of getting injured in return.


Okay, now that we've discussed individual techniques, let's get back to the idea of comparing different arts as you were originally.

When I grapple someone who is twice as skilled as I am, I will almost never finish any sort of submission. Usually I'm just working on survival.

When I box someone who is twice as skilled as I am, I will lose on points but will usually land a few shots. If we were fighting for real, I might have an outside chance of winning if I happened to land a lucky power shot before they dropped me with their own power shots. But probably not.

When I fence (historical, not Olympic) someone who is twice as skilled as me, it's not at all uncommon for me to land the first shot which might be lethal in a real fight or for the two of use to "double" (hit each other simultaneously.

Here's what I think the difference is:

In a sword fight, the superior fencer only has to make a single momentary mistake to take a lethal wound.

In a boxing match, the superior boxer has to make a momentary mistake to get hit, but will probably not lose unless they make a lot of mistakes or one big mistake.

In a submission grappling match, the superior grappler has to make a lot or mistakes in a row in order to get submitted.

 

[skribs]

A standing outwards twisting wrist lock. (Kote gaeshi or omote gyaku or whatever it's called in your system)

I wish these videos would start with "this is the technique we're talking about" and then go into the technique. I get that this is a seminar, but what a lot of people have been doing lately is putting a little 10-second highlight at the start of a video.

I also get that this isn't your video. Sorry for the mini-rant.

 

[skribs]

@Tony Dismukes What I get from your post is that there are low-skill-required techniques and high-skill-required techniques for both striking and grappling, but for the low-skill techniques, it takes less mistakes by a higher-level fighter to get caught by a low-level fighter.

(If I'm going to boil it down to one sentence).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

@Tony Dismukes What I get from your post is that there are low-skill-required techniques and high-skill-required techniques for both striking and grappling, but for the low-skill techniques, it takes less mistakes by a higher-level fighter to get caught by a low-level fighter.

(If I'm going to boil it down to one sentence).

To a certain extent, but I'd say the bigger difference is between striking vs grappling in the number of mistakes that the superior fighter has to make in order to get caught.

 

[drop bear]

How are you determining skill level.

 

[Oily Dragon]

How are you determining skill level.

Kit Dale...wow that's a sendback. I haven't kept up on him since he had that internet beef with that other BJJ guy who promoted himself to black belt under weird circumstances.

 

[drop bear]

Kit Dale...wow that's a sendback. I haven't kept up on him since he had that internet beef with that other BJJ guy who promoted himself to black belt under weird circumstances.

Jordan Tabor?

That is a story.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Jordan Tabor?

That is a story.

I forget but it was the usual back and forth rounds of challenge and counter challenge videos and nothing happened, iirc. I just remember Dale on his porch talking about it.

BJJ guys beefing online, basically. I find it really weird, but entertaining. TMAs used to do this often, challenging each other online, and rarely does it actually lead to fisticuffs.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think when it comes to things like karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, TKD, etc. I think there is a high risk that people think they have more skill than they actually do. So they come off as an "Experienced TKD" based on a belt or point sparring and not based on trying to KO someone. Like in most competition there is rule that restricts use of full power.

I've been to plenty of karate point tournaments and seen plenty of guys get decked (inadvertently, for the most part.) But I think in many cases you're right about over-confidence being a problem. Some schools are sub-par in their resistance training. It depends on the school's physical and mental training. Certainly, most schools teach power generation in striking/kicking and (hopefully) practice this on the heavy bag and hand-held pads as well, sufficiently enough to take down an opponent.

The key is if the practitioner has the spirit to deliver (and receive) this kind of power in a fight. The great majority of practitioners have little desire to be a pro fighter, or even fight full contact in tournaments (me included), yet with proper training and mindset, even this type of martial artist will be far better off than with no MA training at all.