Discussion On My Dojo List

[DWeidman]

I dont understand the "when people use OODA" statement. Do some people actually say they are consciously trying to apply OODA principles during H2H? Or are teaching others to believe that?

We are on the same page here -- by use, I was referring to articles that deal with OODA and how it is used as a process to evaluate things. Your link from earlier with statements about "overwhelming advantage" assume the conscious OODA loops with the opponent (because you don't have an overwhelming advantage if the opponent has a template for the situation you are initiating).

Does that make more sense?

I have never seen (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist) a discussion about OODA where the implication of the cycle was specifically intended to cover subconscious pattern / template matching. (see my next post about progressive attacks -- I will explore a pattern that takes full advantage of a subconscious OODA loop to FORCE a conscious re-evaluation).

-Daniel

 

[msneen]

Hicks Law "utility" is in evaluating training. Dont waste time ingraining things that have no use. A scientific angle on the KISS principle.

I agree with your use of Hick's idea completely.

"Standing By" for your explaination on the attack sequence relationship to OODA Daniel

Regards,

Mike

 

[DWeidman]

Do some people actually say they are consciously trying to apply OODA principles during H2H?

Yes. -- but indirectly (in other words - the term OODA doesn't come up but the principle does.

Example - crossing suigetsu with no kamae - but moving into kamae to change the shape (and feeling) and freeze the opponent in a re-evaluation cycle.

I was taught this - and I teach this all the time. It works because of OODA - plain and simple. I can go step by step through it and explain exactly what is happening in the opponents mind.

-Daniel

 

[Tgace]

I think the "advantage" of looking at OODA as a concept is that even with a "microadvantage" in time, as long as you are able to stay that step ahead of the opponent, the advantage begins to multiply as you keep Acting faster than the other side can respond. Much like in Manuver Warfare doctrine where, when its done right, the force with the OODA advantage levers a small advantage/penetration into having the ability to strike the enemy at will. When the momentum stalls is when you run the risk of having the tables turned.

 

[DWeidman]

Ok...

Lets see if this comes out correctly on paper:

The 5 patterns again are:

1. Direct Attack (completely conscious)
2. Angled Attack (conscious)
3. Combination (conscious / unconscious)
4. Progressive (unconscious)
5. Baited (purely unconscious)

1. Direct Attack - a direct attack against a skilled or unskilled person can be handled completely in the conscious mind. It is straightforward - so assuming he has a modicum of training - his mind can consciously keep up with the stimulus (your attack).

2. Angled attack - again - a bit trickier to handle - but training will allow him to deal with your attack as it is still singular in nature. An angled attack is a direct attack but you add in vectored movement - to hide the attack.

3. Combination. This is his breaking point from being able to handle the attack in conscious mode. If he doesn't have a pattern to start him out - one of the two attacks will make it through. In essence - the stimulus is complex enough that he can't make two conscious loops to solve both attacks and defend properly.

4. Progressive. This one relys on his subconscious patterns and templates. You give him what appears to be a standard attack - so his subconscious mind picks the appropriate template and defends against an attack that morphs (or progresses) to a new target (the intended target all along). Because it "looks" and "feels" like something he has seen - it works past his subscious OODA loop and hits him out of no where. The effect is it slams his mind up to a Conscious OODA loop to evaluate what went wrong - and you have a significant advantage if you press him right then.

5. Baited. If none of the above have worked - the last option to "attack" is to change the entire fighting paradigm. Instead put him in the "driver's seat" and use the change in mindset to find a new hole. In theory - the moment of initiatiation and commitment to the attack there is a hole/opening created in his mind. His templates can't handle your counter at that moment (because of his commitment to action).

There... -- I am open to any and all discussion about the above.

Hope that helps.

-Daniel

 

[DWeidman]

I think the "advantage" of looking at OODA as a concept is that even with a "microadvantage" in time, as long as you are able to stay that step ahead of the opponent, the advantage begins to multiply as you keep Acting faster than the other side can respond. Much like in Manuver Warfare doctrine where, when its done right, the force with the OODA advantage levers a small advantage/penetration into having the ability to strike the enemy at will. When the momentum stalls is when you run the risk of having the tables turned.

This is where we disagree (don't worry - I still like you though... )

The microadvantage is only useful if you can deploy and manuever utilizing the gap created. If the microadvantage is -- say -- 5 milliseconds -- then delivery or exploitation of that has to be realized in that timeframe.

With H2H -- you can't punch and step in 5 milliseconds - so the advantage is lost. In gunfights - however - a bullet is deployed and travels pretty quick - so perhaps the micro-advantage is realized...

And this is where the extension to Boyd's process breaks down ...

-Daniel

 

[msneen]

I think the "advantage" of looking at OODA as a concept is that even with a "microadvantage" in time, as long as you are able to stay that step ahead of the opponent, the advantage begins to multiply as you keep Acting faster than the other side can respond. Much like in Manuver Warfare doctrine where, when its done right, the force with the OODA advantage levers a small advantage/penetration into having the ability to strike the enemy at will. When the momentum stalls is when you run the risk of having the tables turned.

Yes, I agree. This it what my friend James Williams calls the "Gain" pattern. It is another interesting way to look at compressed time frame combat as well.

Many people look at their own part in a fight as trying to get the "big move" on the other guy/team.

Instead, if you look at it as a series of "beats", and you try to better your own advantage on each beat, you will eventually win, and you will leave less openings than if you go for the one "big move".

Actually, I'm just saying what you did but in different words.

Regards,

Mike Sneen

 

[msneen]

This is where we disagree (don't worry - I still like you though... )

The microadvantage is only useful if you can deploy and manuever utilizing the gap created. If the microadvantage is -- say -- 5 milliseconds -- then delivery or exploitation of that has to be realized in that timeframe.

With H2H -- you can't punch and step in 5 milliseconds - so the advantage is lost. In gunfights - however - a bullet is deployed and travels pretty quick - so perhaps the micro-advantage is realized...

And this is where the extension to Boyd's process breaks down ...

-Daniel

Hmmm... I'm going to disagree with you, based on things you have actually done to me in training.

When you first started working with me on shape, you would start with an equal advantage in shape. As we moved, you had a better understanding of shape, ie were able to unconsciously process the ooda loops faster than me in order to take just a little more advantage on each beat until you were able to get in a full punch, followed by repeated punches/strikes/etc.

The only time you lost the advantage in successive beats is when I started to figure out how it worked and take back some of the gain.

Regards,

Mike Sneen

 

[Tgace]

Wheres the breakdown? i would think we have all been in situations where our opponent just seems to keep getting farther and farther ahead of us. It started out as just not being able to land punches to just feeling like you were in a death spiral. Advanced skill give you the advantage of Orienting and (Subconsciously) Deciding and Acting faster than the other guy. Even a small advantage, if you can keep up the pace, results in gain...I dont know if its as much an issue of "entering" into each microsecond as it is being able to stay that "step ahead" of the opponent after you make that initial entry. I think we have also been up against people where we had the obvious advantage and it seemed you could operate at will.

 

[msneen]

The 5 patterns again are:

1. Direct Attack (completely conscious)
2. Angled Attack (conscious)
3. Combination (conscious / unconscious)
4. Progressive (unconscious)
5. Baited (purely unconscious)
...

I was thinking about this at the Gym and I realize the error in my thinking. I have seen this attack pattern sequence quite a bit, so in my mind, the minute I see what looks like an opening from someone who has just thrown the previous 4 attacks(or just seems capable of it), I get real careful. I realized that it is only due to training. Yes, the baited attack is a notch faster in OODA, because it subverts his ooda cycle at the orient stage.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Tgace]

I suppose to use air combat terms its like having that "bogie on your tail" that you just cant shake. Every maneuver you try dosent work and he seems to know your next move. Of course the advantage begins when you have altitude on the other guy and dive in on him out of the sun.....

 

[DWeidman]

Hmmm... I'm going to disagree with you, based on things you have actually done to me in training.

When you first started working with me on shape, you would start with an equal advantage in shape. As we moved, you had a better understanding of shape, ie were able to unconsciously process the ooda loops faster than me in order to take just a little more advantage on each beat until you were able to get in a full punch, followed by repeated punches/strikes/etc.

The only time you lost the advantage in successive beats is when I started to figure out how it worked and take back some of the gain.

Regards,

Mike Sneen

The gain was realized not from OODA - but from slowly encroaching to superior position. The gain wasn't at the OODA level - but at the physical manifestation level - in other words you and I were deciding just as quickly - and cycling just as quickly - but my decisions were slightly better (resulting in gain).

The "full punch and follow-through" was when you didn't have the physical ability to make up for the loss of position quick enough - but it was in the physical layer - not the OODA / subconscious layer.

At least that was how I perceived it.

-Daniel

 

[Tgace]

Maybe we can agree on this. There is OODA in effect across the spectrum of conflict. From the macro (strategic/tactical planning) down to the micro (H2H) but the "utility" (what you can "get your hands on" so to speak) of the concept goes from Macro to Micro along the same lines. All the same Ill take any advantage I can leverage.

 

[msneen]

The gain was realized not from OODA - but from slowly encroaching to superior position. The gain wasn't at the OODA level - but at the physical manifestation level - in other words you and I were deciding just as quickly - and cycling just as quickly - but my decisions were slightly better (resulting in gain).
-Daniel

I would propose that you can look at it another way. I was not arriving at the correct decision on each beat, hence I was behind you in the ooda cycle.

You were doing observe-orient - decide - act on each beat while I was doing observe - orient - hmm... I better do something - act.

The "full punch and follow-through" was when you didn't have the physical ability to make up for the loss of position quick enough ....

When I read this statement, it sounds like it is right out of Boyd's writings.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Tgace]

As this is a Ninjutsu forum (hope you guys dont mind my interloping). I would propose that a lot of the ancient Ninja's "operational" dotrine heavily leveraged OODA principles (OODA is just a term for a process after all). Ambush, distraction, esacpe and evasion all use OODA advantage over an opponent.

 

[Dale Seago]

As this is a Ninjutsu forum (hope you guys dont mind my interloping). I would propose that a lot of the ancient Ninja's "operational" dotrine heavily leveraged OODA principles (OODA is just a term for a process after all). Ambush, distraction, esacpe and evasion all use OODA advantage over an opponent.

I'd agree with that.

And I, for one, certainly don't see you as interloping! You, Dan, and Mike are all making some great and really meaningful contributions here.

 

[msneen]

As this is a Ninjutsu forum (hope you guys dont mind my interloping).

I'm not a x-kan member either, although I have trained in it on and off since about 1990. They can kick us both out of the forum at the same time.

I would propose that a lot of the ancient Ninja's "operational" dotrine heavily leveraged OODA principles (OODA is just a term for a process after all). Ambush, distraction, esacpe and evasion all use OODA advantage over an opponent.

Fortunately or unfortunately they don't teach much of that anymore but at an even more "Micro" level, almost every bujinkan technique/sequence I have seen has had some type of subversion of the other person's ooda cycle built right into it.

Regards,

Mike Sneen

 

[Tgace]

Thank You. In general, I find you guys much more accepting of this kind of stuff than I have seen in other arts. Wish there was a school for the Bujinkan Arts nearby. The days of being able to road trip 3-4 hrs for weekly classes are unfortunately gone.

 

[msneen]

Hey Daniel, I hope you're not letting anything as mundane as a job keep you from posting! I'm curious to see if I've gotten any gain on you in the "gain" discussion. :supcool:

[I trained with Dan for almost 3 years, and we used to sit at restaurants after class having these kinds of discussions... often until 1 or 2 in the morning.]

Regards,

Mike

 

[DWeidman]

I would propose that you can look at it another way. I was not arriving at the correct decision on each beat, hence I was behind you in the ooda cycle.

You were doing observe-orient - decide - act on each beat while I was doing observe - orient - hmm... I better do something - act.



When I read this statement, it sounds like it is right out of Boyd's writings.

Regards,

Mike

I don't know if I have anywhere to go with this... I can't really disagree with your own conclusions of how your mind was working...

The natural direction this discussion would go from here is to how to develop the best templates - so when you cycle with someone - your template has a built in advantage... But that is something I am not sure we can accurately discuss in words on a board (and I don't know how much of this is interesting to anyone else...).

-Daniel