discussion of techniques

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
It was asked in reference to

I was just wandering how EXACTLY you Yili gangs train "to take a good solid shot", of which, MT Roundhouse to the thigh, is as solid a shot as it gets and has put down many good figthers from TKD, Karate and KungFu, and what have you. Many of these challengers stepped up to the MT fighters and the MT fighters just opened up on them and DOWN their go, limping to their eventual defeat. They were totally defenseless in the barrage of roundhouse to the thighs.

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?

GOOD QUESTION! But as long as we are talking "no rules," there is no martial art ever developed that does not have weaknesses.

I expect to take shots, but with skill I expect them to be closer to glancing blows. But if I am hit solid, I am at home on the ground! At thats my point, time after time! Everybody thinks that they can't be tackled or knocked down.

Train for the worst and the better in you will come out.

 

[Mormegil]

For the MT kick to the thigh...if I can't shield it in time (which I'm not even sure I really want to do), I would try to cut kick to the supporting leg. So, from a left lead (matching), I quickly step forward and right to get out power arc of the kick, and deliver a left hook kick to the supporting leg, probably with my own shin. Hopefully they would have fallen having their supporting leg knocked out from under them. If not, or even while they're falling (if I can be that fast), I follow with a R cross (I'm already would up for it), lead punch (hook, uppercut etc), and cross. Next move depends on the position they are in.

If I really didn't see the kick coming, and was immenently going to be hit, and there was nothing I could do to move out of the way or directly counter, I would roll my lead (left if matching), inward so the kick hits my hamstrings instead of the side of my thigh. I think I can take a lot more punishment there, and it will be less likely to buckle my knee. I'm not turned to the right, and will follow with a cross, hook, cross combo, maybe finishing with a lead kick.


I just wanted to add a couple of variations on the defense to the Right cross.

Another Kali counter (learned studying Lucaylucay kali / JKD), would be to slip outside, with a vertical elbow scissors - gunting to the wrist of forearm (r rising vertical elbow covering the face with a simultaenous l lowering parry to guide the arm into the hit. An immediate change in direction of both my arms, with my right arm going donw, and my right hand hooking to try to either grab, or merely hook his arm, pulling towards me, and a simultaenous left rising elbow - this should sandwich and either break the elbow or more likely in my case hyperextend it. This follows with a left finger jab to the face or eyes (sunkite) as I lower forearm onto their bicep to trap the arm with a simultaenous right horizontal elbow to the jaw or area between deltoid and bicep depending on the actual range (my own chin will be tucked under my right shoulder to guard against his left. I would then extend both my arms, right arm extending to grab the back of his neck, and left arm extending downward and outward to hook under right elbow, pull down with my right, and push up with my left for the head and neck throw previously described (puter kepala), with an optional right knee into the chest prior to the throw. I think that uses the "cadena de mano" princial - chain of hands.

A real elegant counter from Panantukan (Pilipino boxing) would simply be the sliding leverage punch with a standard boxing follow up. So as they right cross in matching leads, step out left with a fade, and a simultaenous lead vertical fist with the forearm cutting into his arm. The initial strike with the blade of the forearm should knock them a little of balance if it was a commited punch, and allow you the "guide" to follow the punch up to their face. In addition, it should lower the crossing arm making the face more accessible to a punch, as a good cross will cover the jab and cheek. The intial hit would hopefully clear the arm out of the way and allow follow up punches.


For that very first scenario, I am assuming that your arms are both on the outside. I was thinking, I would probably trap with the left arm across his body also trapping his left arm at the forearm (since it's already higher, and his right arm "looks" more tense), with a simultaenous right punch upward to the jaw. After that, I'm thinking I would step with my right, DEEP forward and left to get behind his right leg, as I crash my right forearm into his chest, keeping my right hand at his face or neck pushing him to my left. My left arm would probably sweep outdownward and out carrying his right arm with a grab. If I do this right, he will be leaning backwards, and be very off balance, and I will be leaning mostly forward. I would then do an outside right backsweep (biset luar) against his right leg, or if I'm unsure of my footing, twist my body to the left about 60 degrees, to get to the same position of the sweep, without moving my legs, instead moving my oponent over my "sweeping" leg. So this is a mix of Wing Chun/Jun Fan and Silat.

Another good follow up from the Wing Chun trapping using silat would be a kenjit siko, or an elbow compression. Basically, with the right hand, smack the face or chest as you step in DEEP with the left behind him (hip to hip), sink your hip down, and follow with your left forearm across his body or with a punch wedging/pushing him to your left. If done right, he will be 90 degrees off from the way he was originally (due to your nudge and wedge), and be leaning slight back over your left thigh. If he hasn't fallen yet, jam your left elbow into his face or the middle of his chest to drop him over your knee. A friend of mine into western wrestling didn't know what hit him when I pulled this one on him (sapus and bisets didn't work too well on him, as he switched his weight too quickly for me - I really should just have stepped on his feet instead).

 

[chufeng]

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?

By taking good solid shots...

I'll have to add the MT roundhouse to our "defense against" listing...I'll keep you posted...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by chufeng
By taking good solid shots...

I'll have to add the MT roundhouse to our "defense against" listing...I'll keep you posted...

:asian:
chufeng

While your at it, you could add my secret sneaky move!

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
For the MT kick to the thigh...if I can't shield it in time (which I'm not even sure I really want to do), I would try to cut kick to the supporting leg. So, from a left lead (matching), I quickly step forward and right to get out power arc of the kick, and deliver a left hook kick to the supporting leg, probably with my own shin. Hopefully they would have fallen having their supporting leg knocked out from under them. If not, or even while they're falling (if I can be that fast), I follow with a R cross (I'm already would up for it), lead punch (hook, uppercut etc), and cross. Next move depends on the position they are in.

If I really didn't see the kick coming, and was immenently going to be hit, and there was nothing I could do to move out of the way or directly counter, I would roll my lead (left if matching), inward so the kick hits my hamstrings instead of the side of my thigh. I think I can take a lot more punishment there, and it will be less likely to buckle my knee. I'm not turned to the right, and will follow with a cross, hook, cross combo, maybe finishing with a lead kick.





I just wanted to add a couple of variations on the defense to the Right cross.

Another Kali counter (learned studying Lucaylucay kali / JKD), would be to slip outside, with a vertical elbow scissors - gunting to the wrist of forearm (r rising vertical elbow covering the face with a simultaenous l lowering parry to guide the arm into the hit. An immediate change in direction of both my arms, with my right arm going donw, and my right hand hooking to try to either grab, or merely hook his arm, pulling towards me, and a simultaenous left rising elbow - this should sandwich and either break the elbow or more likely in my case hyperextend it. This follows with a left finger jab to the face or eyes (sunkite) as I lower forearm onto their bicep to trap the arm with a simultaenous right horizontal elbow to the jaw or area between deltoid and bicep depending on the actual range (my own chin will be tucked under my right shoulder to guard against his left. I would then extend both my arms, right arm extending to grab the back of his neck, and left arm extending downward and outward to hook under right elbow, pull down with my right, and push up with my left for the head and neck throw previously described (puter kepala), with an optional right knee into the chest prior to the throw. I think that uses the "cadena de mano" princial - chain of hands.

A real elegant counter from Panantukan (Pilipino boxing) would simply be the sliding leverage punch with a standard boxing follow up. So as they right cross in matching leads, step out left with a fade, and a simultaenous lead vertical fist with the forearm cutting into his arm. The initial strike with the blade of the forearm should knock them a little of balance if it was a commited punch, and allow you the "guide" to follow the punch up to their face. In addition, it should lower the crossing arm making the face more accessible to a punch, as a good cross will cover the jab and cheek. The intial hit would hopefully clear the arm out of the way and allow follow up punches.


For that very first scenario, I am assuming that your arms are both on the outside. I was thinking, I would probably trap with the left arm across his body also trapping his left arm at the forearm (since it's already higher, and his right arm "looks" more tense), with a simultaenous right punch upward to the jaw. After that, I'm thinking I would step with my right, DEEP forward and left to get behind his right leg, as I crash my right forearm into his chest, keeping my right hand at his face or neck pushing him to my left. My left arm would probably sweep outdownward and out carrying his right arm with a grab. If I do this right, he will be leaning backwards, and be very off balance, and I will be leaning mostly forward. I would then do an outside right backsweep (biset luar) against his right leg, or if I'm unsure of my footing, twist my body to the left about 60 degrees, to get to the same position of the sweep, without moving my legs, instead moving my oponent over my "sweeping" leg. So this is a mix of Wing Chun/Jun Fan and Silat.

Another good follow up from the Wing Chun trapping using silat would be a kenjit siko, or an elbow compression. Basically, with the right hand, smack the face or chest as you step in DEEP with the left behind him (hip to hip), sink your hip down, and follow with your left forearm across his body or with a punch wedging/pushing him to your left. If done right, he will be 90 degrees off from the way he was originally (due to your nudge and wedge), and be leaning slight back over your left thigh. If he hasn't fallen yet, jam your left elbow into his face or the middle of his chest to drop him over your knee. A friend of mine into western wrestling didn't know what hit him when I pulled this one on him (sapus and bisets didn't work too well on him, as he switched his weight too quickly for me - I really should just have stepped on his feet instead).

That was alot. I need to read that post a few more times to get it. I will get back with some questions. Thanx!

 

[Erkki]

MT roundhouse kicks can be devastating, but only good, trained fighters can deliver them with sufficient power to take someone out right away. Most MT kicks from most people will take a couple of hits for the damage to take it's toll. Yeah, it hurts, but it doesn't immobilize you with one shot. If he gets you with more than one shot, you need to practice more or take up crochet.
Yili would respond well to that type of attack. A MT style roundhouse strikes with the shin, not the heel or ball of the foot. Therefore the attacker is closer. Which means it will take less time for the Yili defender to move into the defender and take his ground. This will do two things: It will change the focus of the kick, thereby making it far less potent, and it will catch the attacker in a vulnerable position (being on one leg), which will make it easier to take his ground. While he's flailing around trying to regain his root, he's open for pretty much anything.
Obviously, there are other ways to deal with this particular attack, but this is one of them.

 

[sweeper]

well a thai style kick I would either close in and throw a cut kick or a thrust kick or step out and shield with the knee, if I can't step I just shield and if I can't shield I shift weight and turn the knee in, that can minimise the power alot. Now do you mean how do you train to take a direct kick? or how do you deal with them kick in genneral? I mean if I'm just standing there and don't react and a good thai style round kick lands on my thigh I'm probably gona fall over just because 50% of my weight is gona be on that leg, if I'm actualy fighting, unless I'm blind I cna't see that happening.

As to a thai kick to the head/neck, same thing, exceptI would be alot more likely to close and shield (with elbows/forearms)rather than pull out and shield and I might just sink back depending on range and try to bob/slip it. If I got hit in the head with one I would hope I could catch it on my forehead and be braced, otherwqise down I go.. If it hits my neck than down I go.

 

[James Kovacich]

Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

 

[sweeper]

that deppends on wether it's an opening or if we are exchanging blows. If we are boxing and someone throws it in there I will probably try to close and punch them to take away their power, if we are outside and they are comming in on me I'll probably block with a knee/shin if it's lower torso, or an elbow/forearm in combination with my oposite sie hand for upper torso. If I can see it comming much in advance I'll probably sink back a little and try to catch it, or try to beat it with a side kick or front thrust.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

I'm going with the rear leg example in matched left leads here:

I'll probably have to go back to the cut kick on this one, and do the same follow up as I described with the Muay Thai low line kick. Of course that's if I see it coming and can react.

Otherwise, I would probably try to step forward and left with my left foot, and back and right with my right foot to take some of the bite off it (Filipino triangle footwork), while doing a low boxing cover taking the hit with my forearm, and extending my left arm to cover my left and try to push them off balance. I'm not wound up for a right cross, left body hook, right cross, lead kick or better yet right downward overhead punch, left uppercut, right overhead punch, lead kick.

My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

Well, since your first question was looking for stylistic responses, I'll stay in that vain.

I'll only deal specifically with the kick. The follow ups could be anything that suits the moment depending on the person's reaction/energy.

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.

Silat:
Shelf the kick while moving toward the person - inside the arc of his power. Sweep the supporting leg.

Shen Chuan:
Step inside the arc of power, hook over the kicking leg, knee to one of the pressure points on the inside of the thigh of the standing leg, blend, sink toward a balance disruption point, and pivot to drop the guy.

Kuntao Silat:
Drop below kick, "monkey roll" through supporting leg for takedown (and probably leg break).

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by pesilat

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.


Mike

Any suggestions on this technique? I've been training it for a while, and I don't really feel to confident with it. 1) I'm afraid that the kick might go through my "sandwich" - though that probably shouldn't happen as long as my forearms are pointing slightly upwards to cover. 2) I feel off balance on one leg - at least with a Muay Thai shield, I'm leaning forward and can absorb the blow, with this, I'm not sure where my energy/weight/momentum should be going.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil


My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

First depends on my footwork (placement, in motion etc). Second, assumming we are both right lead. My left hand can either catch your punch on the inside of your arm and continue to an eyejab or strike with the same arm (that was all one continous motion, 1 move, not 2). When I catch your hand it would be my back hand on your inside arm. OR.

My left hand catches the outside of your punching wrist, while re-positioning my lead foot to back, possibly pulling you or attempting a takedown.

The first would be quick natural reaction. While the second one is if you might be stronger than me and I need to call on other resources.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Any suggestions on this technique? I've been training it for a while, and I don't really feel to confident with it. 1) I'm afraid that the kick might go through my "sandwich" - though that probably shouldn't happen as long as my forearms are pointing slightly upwards to cover. 2) I feel off balance on one leg - at least with a Muay Thai shield, I'm leaning forward and can absorb the blow, with this, I'm not sure where my energy/weight/momentum should be going.

Generally, I find that problems like what you describe come from a lack of commitment (this may not be your problem, but it's the most common cause).

Always think "attack." Yes, you're right, if your elbows are down, then the kick usually won't get through. But if it does, it should have been slowed down. Some of the energy should have been bled off. Often, if it gets through, you can drop your arms, trap the leg, takedown and lock.

As far as your balance, try using the same body mechanics that you use for a Muay Thai knee. But instead of having your hands on the back of his head or body, they're on his leg. And instead of kneeing into his face/ribs, you're kneeing into his leg.

Hope that made sense and helps

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil

My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

I think the following would be applicable to all 4 of the arts I train in (though each would have a different flavor/emphasis/follow up).

As he pushes into me through the trapped arm, go with the energy of the push so I can pivot. Fire your other hand, elbow down, just over his incoming fist to cut his line, deflect his punch, and hit him in the face.

Of course, there are other possible answers, but this is one that I would personally consider a "preference" because of its use of economy of motion.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Well, since your first question was looking for stylistic responses, I'll stay in that vain.

I'll only deal specifically with the kick. The follow ups could be anything that suits the moment depending on the person's reaction/energy.

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.

Silat:
Shelf the kick while moving toward the person - inside the arc of his power. Sweep the supporting leg.

Shen Chuan:
Step inside the arc of power, hook over the kicking leg, knee to one of the pressure points on the inside of the thigh of the standing leg, blend, sink toward a balance disruption point, and pivot to drop the guy.

Kuntao Silat:
Drop below kick, "monkey roll" through supporting leg for takedown (and probably leg break).

Mike

Boy, you have a lot to draw from!

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I'm going with the rear leg example in matched left leads here:


Otherwise, I would probably try to step forward and left with my left foot, and back and right with my right foot to take some of the bite off it (Filipino triangle footwork), while doing a low boxing cover taking the hit with my forearm, and extending my left arm to cover my left and try to push them off balance. I'm not wound up for a right cross, left body hook, right cross, lead kick or better yet right downward overhead punch, left uppercut, right overhead punch, lead kick.

Somebodys been woking with me on this type of footwork. I find it to work well with my body although I'm programmed more to go through my opponent than to "adjust" my feet in this way.

It will take some time, but once I've blended the "Kali" style footwork with my Jun Fan/Western Boxing style footwork, it will be a good flow.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
...... Of course that's if I see it coming and can react.....

lol Yes, EXACTLY! That is the KEY....

All the techniques posted by everyone are fine and dandy, and all that, if "you see the attack coming and can react.."

So how do you "see it coming"?

99 out of a hundred people, over-estimate they ability to react in time and under-estimate how fast the attack comes in. Sooo, get into the ring and SPAR!! lol

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki
MT roundhouse kicks can be devastating, but only good, trained fighters can deliver them with sufficient power to take someone out right away. Most MT kicks from most people will take a couple of hits for the damage to take it's toll. Yeah, it hurts, but it doesn't immobilize you with one shot. If he gets you with more than one shot, you need to practice more or take up crochet.
Yili would respond well to that type of attack. A MT style roundhouse strikes with the shin, not the heel or ball of the foot. Therefore the attacker is closer. Which means it will take less time for the Yili defender to move into the defender and take his ground. This will do two things: It will change the focus of the kick, thereby making it far less potent, and it will catch the attacker in a vulnerable position (being on one leg), which will make it easier to take his ground. While he's flailing around trying to regain his root, he's open for pretty much anything.
Obviously, there are other ways to deal with this particular attack, but this is one of them.

lol, you are assuming that the MT fighter is a one trick pony. All real attacks are in combo, ie, one attack with several follow up, each depending on the out come of the previous attack...

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

Raise your knee, turn it outward to intercept it. Shield your head/neck with your elbow, b/c that Roundhouse may actually go for your head. Seen that happened many times and down they went! lol

Immediately follow up with counter attack to break his momentum. Unless he is a moron, he is not taking just one shot at you. Always think follow-up.