Discussing the Middle East and the Conflicts therein

[knuckleheader]

Here is some reading material to foster intelligent discussion; You may have to link to wikipedia encyclopedia. The links here don't seem to work. Oh well.

Israel-Palestinian conflict and the History of Palestine.)

The Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Here is some reading material to foster intelligent discussion; You may have to link to wikipedia encyclopedia. The links here don't seem to work. Oh well.

Israel-Palestinian conflict and the History of Palestine.)

The Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire

Fixed those links for ya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Palestinian_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_(politics)

 

[CanuckMA]

Thanks KH. The first article is actually a pretty fair and objective analysis of the situation. Something you don't see often.

 

[knuckleheader]

Thanks KH. The first article is actually a pretty fair and objective analysis of the situation. Something you don't see often.

Thanks Canuck, I've heard wiki can have it's bias also. Just wanted to put in a general backround of the areas history. There's been conflict going on for a long time in the Mid East, as you well know. It'll be going on for a long time. They're just going to learn how to coexist or continue to suffer the consequences. Very unfortunate.

 

[CanuckMA]

First thing that needs to be done is for the Arab world to actually recognize Israel as a country.

There are certain things that are not negiotable.

1 - A one-state solution will never work. Within a generation, there would be an Arab majority and the Jews would be forced to leave.

2 - Israel cannot give up the Golan. But that is a deal with Syria, not the Palestinians.

3 - There can be no right of return for the Palestinians 'refugees'. See #1.

4 - Jerusalem is our capital. Doesn't mean it can't be shared, but it won't be abandonned.

Facts on the ground is pretty much that the border is established. Israel needs to evacuate settlements that are well inside the West Bank. For settlements close to the current border, give up other territory, to make it as even a swap as possible. Share Jerusalem.

I'd say one sticking point in evacuating the settlements is Hebron. And maybe having a permanent UN force there would be good. Unfortunately, Muslim extremists don't have a great record at preserving Holy sites. And Hebron is one of our earliest one. The Patriarchs and Matriarchs are buried there.


The violence and terrorist acts just don't help. The Israeli political landscape is not really different from anywhere else.

We have far-right nutbars, represented by the Settlers. They believe in Israel's borders as described in Torah. Not going to happen.

We have far-left nutbars, represented by groups like Peace Now, who'd give up most of the land for peace. Not happening either.

Most of Israel is Centrist. However, the failure of Olso, OsloII and most notably Camp David, with the triggering of the second antifada, has shifted a lot of left-of-centre towards the right.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I modestly propose that both Israel and Palestine give up sovereignty or any claims on independent statehood to the UN in perpetuity. The UN to occupy and establish a permanent headquarters in or near Jerusalem and to raise a standing army of its own as opposed to lend-lease troops from other countries. All current residents of Israel and Palestine to be given status as dual-citizens of the Principality of the UN and Israel / Palestine (whichever applies). All building permits and immigration to be handled by the UN, with no recourse by either Israel or Palestine. All felony-level criminal courts and prisons to be maintained by the UN. The armed forces and nuclear weapons of Israel to be disbanded, deactivated, and/or turned over to the UN.

The UN would require the backup of powerful nations such as the USA, Russia, and China to guarantee the safety of Israel as it gave up it's powerful military might. Once transfer had occurred and the new UN military was capable, the UN would be the military force for the new area of Israel/Palestine and would be able to respond as a sovereign nation to threats from the outside against either Israelis or Palestinians.

 

[CanuckMA]

I modestly propose that both Israel and Palestine give up sovereignty or any claims on independent statehood to the UN in perpetuity. The UN to occupy and establish a permanent headquarters in or near Jerusalem and to raise a standing army of its own as opposed to lend-lease troops from other countries. All current residents of Israel and Palestine to be given status as dual-citizens of the Principality of the UN and Israel / Palestine (whichever applies). All building permits and immigration to be handled by the UN, with no recourse by either Israel or Palestine. All felony-level criminal courts and prisons to be maintained by the UN. The armed forces and nuclear weapons of Israel to be disbanded, deactivated, and/or turned over to the UN.

The UN would require the backup of powerful nations such as the USA, Russia, and China to guarantee the safety of Israel as it gave up it's powerful military might. Once transfer had occurred and the new UN military was capable, the UN would be the military force for the new area of Israel/Palestine and would be able to respond as a sovereign nation to threats from the outside against either Israelis or Palestinians.

:lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:

 

[Archangel M]

and the new UN military was capable

:lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:

 

[chaos1551]

I modestly propose that both Israel and Palestine give up sovereignty or any claims on independent statehood to the UN in perpetuity. The UN to occupy and establish a permanent headquarters in or near Jerusalem and to raise a standing army of its own as opposed to lend-lease troops from other countries. All current residents of Israel and Palestine to be given status as dual-citizens of the Principality of the UN and Israel / Palestine (whichever applies). All building permits and immigration to be handled by the UN, with no recourse by either Israel or Palestine. All felony-level criminal courts and prisons to be maintained by the UN. The armed forces and nuclear weapons of Israel to be disbanded, deactivated, and/or turned over to the UN.

The UN would require the backup of powerful nations such as the USA, Russia, and China to guarantee the safety of Israel as it gave up it's powerful military might. Once transfer had occurred and the new UN military was capable, the UN would be the military force for the new area of Israel/Palestine and would be able to respond as a sovereign nation to threats from the outside against either Israelis or Palestinians.

Seems like at some point in the past that was a considerable option. Anymore, it seems no one sees this as viable. The way Wikipedia reads, the idea of this happening has about the same odds as a worldwide utopia. Sure would be nice, though.

 

[CanuckMA]

The original partition plan did have Jerusalem as an internationally controlled city.

 

[chaos1551]

The original partition plan did have Jerusalem as an internationally controlled city.

Perhaps a few generations go by and the international control is ceded to the state.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The original partition plan did have Jerusalem as an internationally controlled city.

You mean like Danzig between the wars? Ya, that worked well.

 

[CanuckMA]

The best plan now is to share Jerusalem. Divided if we must, but I dream of a single Jerusalem as the capital of both states.

 

[Carol]

I have a question, and I hope nobody takes this as rude or inflammatory as it is not intended to be.

I saw this flag on a personal web page of someone I respect. I would rather not ask him directly what it means because I only know him professionally and not that well (we occasionally hire him as an Arabic translator).

I realize that the left is (was) the PLO flag and the right is the Israeli flag. What is the deeper significance? Unity? My first reaction was that it is something positive...but symbols always have deeper meanings. I'm just wildly curious! What say you?

 

[CanuckMA]

I've never seen this.

The paranoid in me sees it as a symbol of the 'one state solution', which is suicidal for the Jews.

 

[Carol]

I've never seen this.

The paranoid in me sees it as a symbol of the 'one state solution', which is suicidal for the Jews.

Oohh boy.

 

[xJOHNx]

I have a question, and I hope nobody takes this as rude or inflammatory as it is not intended to be.

I saw this flag on a personal web page of someone I respect. I would rather not ask him directly what it means because I only know him professionally and not that well (we occasionally hire him as an Arabic translator).

I realize that the left is (was) the PLO flag and the right is the Israeli flag. What is the deeper significance? Unity? My first reaction was that it is something positive...but symbols always have deeper meanings. I'm just wildly curious! What say you?

Canuck is right, it's the symbol for the idea of an united country.
The mind must be open before something like that could ever happen.

 

[CanuckMA]

And that 'one state solution' spells the death of the national home for the Jews. For as soon as the demographics have shifted and Muslims get a majority, Israel would become just like any other Muslim country in that region. And of course Jews are truly welcome in those countries.

The only solution is 2 separate states.

 

[Carol]

Yah. I have high regard for Muslims all around the world. And please don't anyone make me qualify that by saying "Except those Muslims who...". Please. We have had plenty of those "Except those who..." types right here in the Archdiocese of Boston.

I'm all for dreaming about a time when "the world shall live as one" so sayeth John Lennon, and Muslims and Jews have the benefit of a lot of shared history. But I'm not willing to to suspend all logic in saying that will happen anytime soon.

After all, U.S. forces are only in the middle east for the betterment of her people, eh? You just gotta have an open mind, right?

...............I didn't think so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And that 'one state solution' spells the death of the national home for the Jews. For as soon as the demographics have shifted and Muslims get a majority, Israel would become just like any other Muslim country in that region. And of course Jews are truly welcome in those countries.

The only solution is 2 separate states.

The only thing that kept modern Yugoslavia together and non-violent towards each other was a single strongman dictator, Tito. As soon as he was gone, Yugoslavia flew apart.

Israel and Palestine will never stop being at each other's throats until peace is imposed on them. An armed UN that occupies the geography that is now Israeli and Palestinian territory and a forcibly disarmed Israel and Palestine could serve the same purpose. The UN would have to be backed up by major international players to ensure that Israel's enemies could not fall on it and destroy it once Israel no longer existed as a sovereign state.

There will never be peace in the Middle East until it is imposed by others. I don't give a crap about Israel's sovereignty, but they have the right to exist and to live in peace in the land they now occupy.

Another potential solution I have heard of is that of virtual nationality. Statehood has always been tied to land; but there is no reason it has to be. Palestine and Israel could theoretically both be states, both be sovereign, and both occupy the same land. Not easy to do, but it might be possible. Tricky, though.

In the end, I do not think Israel wants peace anymore than Palestine does, except under terms that the other will not accept; that's stalemate. Peace will have to be imposed once the world has had enough of their crap.