Disappearing History...

[MBuzzy]

So practice Shotokan. I've never trained for the Olympics a day in my life.

I don't believe that anyone wants to replace TKD with Shotokan. There is most certainly a difference, even with much older versions of TKD. It was "translated" into Korean, not adopted directly. It was an influence into the creation of the Korean styles, not the sole basis.

Personally, I'm proud of acknowledge the wide range of influences to Korean Martial Arts. They incorporate ideas from both China and Japan to create a unique style. What I personally would love to understand - as many others would as well - is why so many people with so many resources to the contrary simply don't want to admit to any Japanese involvement. Well, either not admit it or just try to brush it under the carpet.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I love that my TKD, the original TKD is so like Shotokan

that Olympic style crap they (the koreans)have turned it into is a disgrace to martial arts.

I don't mind the WTF style, which is the appropriate term, particularly if it nixed from the olympics after the next summer games.

I wouldn't call it a disgrace to martial arts. That is a bit harsh, though I do feel that the behavior of some of the players last year left a bit to be desired. Still, the actions of a few should not be damning of the tournament rule set.

For developing strong kicking, it is quite nice, and it is a fun style. I like the fact that it it full contact and continuous, and I like the fact that it imposes a unique situation where kicks are the primary weapon of choice. I do feel that the WTF should develope a more realistic set of sparring rules to compliment the current style, one that would allow sweeps and takedowns and a greater range of hand techniques.

To my knowledge, it was developed by the Jidokwan specifically to distance TKD from Shotokan. That is something that was told to me some time back; no citations, so if I am incorrect, I'd actually like to know.

I don't believe that it should be considered a substitute for SD training and I certainly don't feel that sport only schools should call themselves taekwondo schools.

WTF style fighting is essentially a Korean style of kickboxing. If a school wants to focus on sport only, they should call it Korean Kickboxing, not Taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[Makalakumu]

That Olympic style crap they (the koreans)have turned it into is a disgrace to martial arts.

Lets not go that far, TF. IMO, Olympic TKD is probably the MOST Korean form of TKD. From my experience, the more "traditional" you get, the more the TKD starts to look like Shotokan.

Olympic TKD is a combat sport like boxing. It was conceived of in Korea and it represents something that was truly innovated in Korea.

The problem with Olympic TKD is that it pretends to be something that its not. When you've got high level competitors practicing basics, combinations, and drills for the ring AND you have them do hyung, ill soo shik, and ho sin shul, the latter three suffer because that isn't the focus.

So, the art looks like crap and gets trashed by people who watch. IMO, Olympic TKD would get better publicity and would produce better fighters if they just dropped the karate pretense.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So practice Shotokan. I've never trained for the Olympics a day in my life.

No, but if you spar using the WTF rules, then you are training in the style of Taekwondo sparring used in the olympics.

Perhaps Twin's choice of the word, 'Olympic' is not the technically correct, but anyone who watched or is familiar with Olympic taekwondo will know instantly what he's talking about.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

thats ok, i expected a snotty comment from Young Man, it is what he does. Eveyone has a purpose, thats his.

thats just par the course:

"Black is sinister, i dont trust people that wear black"
and the classic:
"I know REAL sparring and groin kicks are too dangerous"

pffft

I said what i meant and meant what i said

Olympic style crap

I dont care how strong thier kicks are, if they aint used to getting punched in the face, I know how to beat them. That aint TKD, it is, if anything, Korean kickboxing, like someone said. Call it that and I wont have a problem with it.

But dont call it TKD, dont call it a martial art.

I hear "Martial art" I dont think some sport, i think self defense. And WTF style olympic sparring has as much to do with self defense as a hot dog does with a warm fluffy puppy. It may sound simular, but it aint even close.

oh, and while I am calling it like it is, that sine wave stuff? thats crap too.

what else.....lemme think, I am sure there is something else I can rag on.....
:soapbox:

 

[Twin Fist]

i love channeling my inner jerk sometimes....


LOL

 

[elder999]

oh, and while I am calling it like it is, that sine wave stuff? thats crap too.

Crap squared, even....:lol:

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, i dont care who you are, that right there's funny!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I dont care how strong thier kicks are, if they aint used to getting punched in the face, I know how to beat them. That aint TKD, it is, if anything, Korean kickboxing, like someone said. Call it that and I wont have a problem with it.

But dont call it TKD, dont call it a martial art.

That was me, and I agree; call it kickboxing. I still maintain that WTF sparring is a nice adjunct to the martial art of Taekwondo. It showcases the kicks in a way that is unique. I don't have a problem with it in and of itself until it becomes the end goal.

As a facet of taekwondo it is fine, but if the main focus, or indeed only focus in training is to be competative in that style of sparring on the tournament circuit, then it is incomplete. Kind of like learning how to work a stick shift without ever training in driving the car. Sure, you can row gears faster than anyone, but until the engine starts, it is a skill that exists in a vacuum.

Daniel

 

[Makalakumu]

If boxing is a martial art, why isn't Olympic TKD?

 

[Twin Fist]

i dont consider boxing a martial art.

that being said:

Martial Art= self defense

boxing CAN be used for self defense

try that hands down all kicking stuff on the street.




I will make sure your parents know you didnt feel much pain.........

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If boxing is a martial art, why isn't Olympic TKD?

For one, there is a good amount of debate as to whether or not boxing is a martial art. Boxing certainly does qualify as martial sport, and so does WTF sparring. Martial art? That's a can of worms for someone else to open.

The issue isn't whether or not "olympic taekwondo" is a martial art: nobody maintains that it is. All agree that it is the kyorugi of Kukkiwon taekwondo, not the martial art in its entirety.

The issue that people who train exclusively for the sport or primarilly in such a way that their fighting is good only in that specific sport setting are really not training in taekwondo. They're just doing a very focused form of kickboxing, then get offended when those who study the art in its entirety point out that they are cutting out large portions of the art, taekwondo, but still calling it taekwondo.

Kind of like removing the transmission from a car, fixing it up, painting the casing, and making it picture perfect, putting it on a stand in the middle of your garage and calling it a car.

 

[exile]

I love that my TKD, the original TKD is so like Shotokan

that Olympic style crap they (the koreans)have turned it into is a disgrace to martial arts.

Here's my take on it, TF. If someone wants to do the version of TKD that is guided by a strategy designed for Olympic-style point-scoring, that's 100% fine with me. It's not something I want to do myself, but I won't say boo about someone else doing it. To each their own.

But by the same token, I won't accept self-satisfied put-downs of the kind one sometimes sees, even here on MT —that what is in fact a very traditional style of TKD, reflecting both the Shotokan training of its founders and the harsh military role it was called upon to play in the defense of the ROK, should be dissed because it's 'too Japanese'. When citizens of the US start echoing a party line which makes perfect sense for a certain kind of Korean nationalism, but no sense at all for members of an open western society where we don't equate truth with the party line.... it's time for a few mocking raspberries and horse-laughs. The fact of the matter is that whatever style of TKD you do, even the most WTFish, you should be offended at the outright falsehoods and historical distortions that the KKW/WTF puts out about the history of TKD. Orwell called it Newthink in 1984—mass-produced lies about the past that give carte blanche to the leadership of a docile-sheep society to do precisely what they want. The OP of this thread was, if I read it right, a cry of pain at the way this policy of historical distortion has attempted to erase incontrovertible, deeply documented facts about the origins of our art, for purposes of a foreign national bureaucracy whose interests have nothing to do with our own. Whether or not you love WTF-style TKD, surely it's clear that well-funded, high profile campaign of lying and distortion in an effort to promote a partisan agenda is a corrupting practice that does nothing but ratify the power of those in power?

The truth of TKD's history is fine and distinguished. But the most important thing about is that it is the truth. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free—haven't we heard that before, somewhere? No matter what your beliefs are, surely we hold in the end that we'd rather know the truth, whatever it is, than be sold a bill of goods by sharpies who'd play us like puppets if we let them?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The fact of the matter is that whatever style of TKD you do, even the most WTFish, you should be offended at the outright falsehoods and historical distortions that the KKW/WTF puts out about the history of TKD. Orwell called it Newthink in 1984—mass-produced lies about the past that give carte blanche to the leadership of a docile-sheep society to do precisely what they want. The OP of this thread was, if I read it right, a cry of pain at the way this policy of historical distortion has attempted to erase incontrovertible, deeply documented facts about the origins of our art, for purposes of a foreign national bureaucracy whose interests have nothing to do with our own. Whether or not you love WTF-style TKD, surely it's clear that well-funded, high profile campaign of lying and distortion in an effort to promote a partisan agenda is a corrupting practice that does nothing but ratify the power of those in power?

Thank you, Exile for bringing this thread back on topic. This is ideed the heart of the matter. The value of WTF style sparring is not the issue, love it or hate it. The issue is the blatant revisionist history being put out for purely nationalistic reasons and which is being spread by those not even of the same nation. True, this fabrication is one that is easily debunked.... for now. But what about when the record is so badly distorted that taekwondo's true origins are lost, and those with first hand and even direct second hand accounts are no longer living to stand up for the factual events?

Earlier in this thread, one poster indicated that the pracitce of his art was more important than the history of it. On a personal level, this is true; knowing the history but being a poor practitioner is rather worthless unless you're a martial historian.

Where it becomes an issue is when the intent of our techniques are being researched. When in the more in depth study of our art, we look to the origins of the techiques to better understand them. If our technique is Shotokan derived, but we keep finding Subak and Taekyeon in our history, then where do we go to look? Subak and Taekyeon. So now you study Taekyeon to better understand Taekwondo, but the execution of the kicks is entirely different. Now you've hit a dead. Now the search begins for a 'missing link' Korean art that was combined with Taekyeon, the records of which were surely destroyed by the Japanese during the occupation. But by gum, it must be there, because the kicks in modern TKD are not Taekyeon kicks. And so the search begins.

But it is nothing but a fruitless rabbit trail and a waste of time. Not because the records were destroyed, mind you, but because some group of insecure individuals couldn't handle admitting that there was any Japanese influence in Korea's most popular MA, so they simply lied and covered it up. Not only that, now there is speculation about the techiques of a nonexistant MA and the factors that led to its creation, and why it died out in favor of taekwondo. Perhaps evidence that really supports something else is then misinterpreted to be evidence of this nonexistant MA.

When National interests bear down on the origins of a martial art, something that has zero bearing on public policy, the MA will suffer and its developement be hindered. Then something truely Korean, truely spectacular, and truely worthwhile will have been lost.

That is why history of a martial art matters.

Daniel

 

[Makalakumu]

i dont consider boxing a martial art.

I started a thread to this topic here.

 

[Makalakumu]

Miles - here's an interesting thought I've had for some time. Lets say we dump the history and just consider TKD as a modern combat sport. Lets say we grab a competition rule book and design a curriculum based off of common sparring stances, high percentage techniques and combinations, lots of drilling and lots of sparring. Dump everything else. No poomse, no ill soo shik, no ho sin shul.

My guess is that you would produce a competitive fighter far beyond the caliber of fighter that a traditional TKD curriculum would produce.

It's these kinds of questions that lead me ask why we practice what we practice. What's the purpose of forms without application? What's the purpose of ill soo shik and ho sin shul that have no relationship to either sparring or forms? What's the purpose of practicing basics that have no relationship to sparring, ill soo shik, ho sin shul, or hyung? IMO, this is an ecclectic mess.

Miles, as a professional educator, I've learned that the way curriculum ties together is very important to its effectiveness. If the elements are disjointed, then you end up practicing them separately, with no relation. It spreads your time too thin and the skill level you attain in any of the elements is retarded.

There is a way to practice all of the elements together so that they interact synergistically and you get better at everything at a greater rate. It's all about alignment. When your curriculum is aligned toward a set of goals and the elements are zero-summed to fit those goals, you create synergistic learning opportunities.

So, what if TKD were trained like boxing? Boxing has alignment of its basics, combos, drills, and sparring toward a specific set of goals. The result is that the system produces high level practicioners who acheive great results.

I spun off a new thread here. Should Olympic TKD be trained like Boxing?

 

[terryl965]

People People People we all know that history is just that history go on with your lifes, live in the present day and train for you and nobody else. With that I bid a fond adue.

 

[arnisador]

People People People we all know that history is just that history go on with your lifes, live in the present day and train for you and nobody else. With that I bid a fond adue.

I respect your opinion and that of anyone who focuses strongly on his or her training rather than being distracted by the political nonsense, but I do think it matters! As others have said, if you know the roots it's easier to trace back to the meaning. In Modern Arnis we went back to its Balintawak Eskrima roots to see what techniques had been modified to form our art, and it was very enlightening! Same with studying Wing Chun to enlighten my JKD. It matters in principle, and it matters in practice.

 

[YoungMan]

In 50 years, no one will know who the Kwan leaders were, just like no one now knows who did what to contribute to Korean martial arts from 200 years ago.
As I said before, Koreans see their martial arts history as as integrated whole, not compartmentalized into specific systems created by specific people a la Japanese karate. As such, who did what is not important, and one person cannot take credit for the art as a whole. This is something, I believe, many people have a hard time with. They want to give specific people credit for specific things, and Korean martial arts don't work like that.
Along these same lines, Taekwondo 100 years from now will undoubtably be different. In what ways I don't know. The people who made it different (they may be unborn, they may be typing this right now) will not matter so much as the end product.
So the history is disappearing because Taekwondo is bigger than its individual parts, not because of Kwan leaders from 50 years ago.

 

[dancingalone]

As I said before, Koreans see their martial arts history as as integrated whole, not compartmentalized into specific systems created by specific people a la Japanese karate. As such, who did what is not important, and one person cannot take credit for the art as a whole. This is something, I believe, many people have a hard time with. They want to give specific people credit for specific things, and Korean martial arts don't work like that.

I'm curious what the basis is for your statement, YM. Hapkido and its derivations like Kuk Sool seem to be personality driven where students, Koreans included, are strongly loyal to one grandmaster or another.