Dropping the Trapping in JKD

[chinaboxer]

IMO they drop it because they can't get it to work such as in sparring. this is primarily because they don't understand the "foundation" of Wing Chun and "why" the movements work. I watch the JKD instructors on the internet showing basic Wing Chun movements, but they don't understand the very basic concepts and principles. and without this knowledge, i just sit there and say "it will never work".

for instance, if you do any Wing Chun movement and turn your shoulders, this is completely incorrect. if both shoulders are NOT facing your opponent at all times, you are NOT utilizing the "body structure" of wing chun and it will be extremely difficult to use in a real situation or in sparring. this IMO is why they get rid of the trapping, because they can't get it to work, because they don't understand the wing chun "body structure".

I have a tutorial on Chinese Boxing for those interested at www.thechinaboxer.com

take care and peace!

Jin

 

[rooke]

Disagree. Wing Chun is not JKD and vice versa. Yet they both use trapping. Trapping does not require WC body structure. Does the WC body structure help? Sure. Both hands are facing forward so it makes a more efficient and faster trap. But this can also be done with adequate footwork.

Watch footage of Bruce Lee. He could do it in his fencing lead.

I did my trapping from an MMA stance. So did my opponents.

Who are some JKD folks who use trapping? Paul Vunak, Steve Grody, Ron Balicki, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo. So do many others. They don't stand in Wing Chun body structures when they fight, but still use it.

Rooke

 

[chinaboxer]

Disagree. Wing Chun is not JKD and vice versa. Yet they both use trapping. Trapping does not require WC body structure. Does the WC body structure help? Sure. Both hands are facing forward so it makes a more efficient and faster trap. But this can also be done with adequate footwork.

Watch footage of Bruce Lee. He could do it in his fencing lead.

I did my trapping from an MMA stance. So did my opponents.

Who are some JKD folks who use trapping? Paul Vunak, Steve Grody, Ron Balicki, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo. So do many others. They don't stand in Wing Chun body structures when they fight, but still use it.

Rooke

look, i've trained with those guys, they are friends. They ALL had to go outside of JKD and train with Wing Chun instructors for many years to understand the basics, why? because they couldn't get the JKD wing chun to work, as it is taught, when it mattered and that's against an unwilling partner and not against other JKD training partners who don't challenge but rather allow them to do their thing.

if you have to rely on speed and strength to get wing chun to work, then it isn't wing chun at all, i think that people forget that wing chun was created by a woman, who was NOT fast and NOT strong, she was forced to find a different way.

Bruce Lee even up to his untimely death could NOT lay a hand on Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at chi sau. that's why later, he began to shed it from his method, and relied more and more on his speed and athleticism. But if he were alive today, and at the age of 70, how in the world would he be able to still rely on that? believe me, he would HAVE to return to the very thing he shed, the wing chun method.

my advice to you, would be to go and give a wing chun school a try, i'm not saying give up JKD, but rather to see "why" and "how" the wing chun structure works.

 

[rooke]

look, i've trained with those guys, they are friends. They ALL had to go outside of JKD and train with Wing Chun instructors for many years to understand the basics, why? because they couldn't get the JKD wing chun to work, as it is taught, when it mattered and that's against an unwilling partner and not against other JKD training partners who don't challenge but rather allow them to do their thing.

if you have to rely on speed and strength to get wing chun to work, then it isn't wing chun at all, i think that people forget that wing chun was created by a woman, who was NOT fast and NOT strong, she was forced to find a different way.

Bruce Lee even up to his untimely death could NOT lay a hand on Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung at chi sau. that's why later, he began to shed it from his method, and relied more and more on his speed and athleticism. But if he were alive today, and at the age of 70, how in the world would he be able to still rely on that? believe me, he would HAVE to return to the very thing he shed, the wing chun method.

my advice to you, would be to go and give a wing chun school a try, i'm not saying give up JKD, but rather to see "why" and "how" the wing chun structure works.

Hmmm...I know these guys too. What you say doesn't ring true. And when they use the traps, they don't go into a Wing Chun mode. Ironically, none of them have given up JKD for the superiority of Wing Chun. Many of them have trained Wing Chun to study it, as they do Muay Thai, Savate, etc. Its part and parcel of the JKD mentality. That doesn't mean that they found whole worlds of things they missed. Sometime cross-study in something is to satisfy curiosity, interest, or marketability.

The legend of Ng Mui is in serious dispute amongst many people. I personally like the theory of it being used as an assassination art rather than the nun story. Rings more true to me, although neither can be proved at this point.

And Bruce Lee not being able to lay a hand on his teacher Yip Man? There's SUCH a thing as student/teacher respect. Romanticizing the invulnerability of an old master is common in many arts. But it doesn't hold true in verifiable accounts...you don't see it in boxing, kickboxing, MMA, etc, unless the person doing it is COMPLETELY incompetent.

As for "Speed and Strength". I never said that. I should have said footwork. But if we're on the subject many people I know agree that even superior technique can blanche in the face of superior attributes. And at a certain point, the refinement is negligible.

I've talked to some of these folks quite honestly about trapping. What they say doesn't jive with what you say. Furthermore, Dan and Richard have crosstrained with many Wing Chun people. True. Ron Balicki is certified under Randy Williams, and has studied with Francis Fong. But they've done the same with numerous silat, kali, and Muay Thai folks. Who has Vunak and Grody left the fold to go study trapping under? Or do you mean they studied with people invited to the Kali Academy, while they were there doing seminars? If so, that doesn't jive with what you said.

I THINK you may be mistaking their CHOICE of trapping expression for a lack of understanding because its not the Wing Chun way.

Rooke

 

[chinaboxer]

we can probably go around and around in circles discussing this, but IMO it boils down to this...

how can you let something go, when you don't have it in the first place?

Bruce Lee's Jun Fan JKD's very foundation and core is based on Wing Chun concepts and principles and "body structure". Look at Bruce Lee's early version of Jun Fan Gung Fu, it was "forward facing" not shoulder turning, it was planted on both feet, not lifting the heels and doing a "toe heel sway". little by little he changed it to fit his strengths which at that time were his physical attributes.

Hawkins Cheung is the one who told me, that NOBODY, no matter how hard they tried, could touch Yip Man. That Yip Man would go down the line of students giving them all a chance, one by one, and he would completely control each and every student. And you have to understand that Wong Shun Leung, Hawkins Cheung, Bruce Lee etc..they were "fighters", always trying to prove that they were better than the other, testing their skills on other gangs, they were not "bow" to sifu Yip Man, "yes sir, no sir". heck no, they were not like that in those days. they would address Yip Man as the "old man", lol.

anyways, this is only my opinion, but the way wing chun is taught in the Jun Fan JKD is not "classical wing chun" where you actually learn every part, but rather it's Bruce Lee's "modified" version. I personally think that instead of learning it from a "modified" perspective first, learn it from the "classical" version so that you fully understand the "method". then you can alter it to suit your own needs, but at this point, you'll alter it to fit YOU and nobody else. exactly what Bruce Lee did.

i understand your point of view, because i used to train exactly like that, the wing chun training i got was only from the Jun Fan JKD classes, and it was the "modified" Bruce Lee's version. But Ron, myself, Joe, Chad, Damon, Justin etc...we all understood it in "theory" but when we sparred in the ring, NOBODY could pull off trapping, and we all resorted back to muay thai clinch, Grappling, Shooto, BJJ, etc...that's when i decided that in order to move "foward" in my martial arts journey, i would have to go "backwards" in my training and start from scratch, which is the classical wing chun.


i guess my point is this, wing chun is a "forward facing" body structure with both feet firmly planted on the ground. boxing, muay thai etc..get there structure by "pivoting" from the "toe heel sway" to the "rotation of the hips" to the "rotation of the shoulders". they are completely different structures, getting power completely different ways. so how do you mix the two when they are completely "opposing" methods? this is the challenge, some would say, impossible to do. which might even be why Bruce Lee and many JKD instructors today are "shedding" the wing chun which includes the trapping from their training. i really can't say for sure, but again this is only my 2cents, for what it's worth.

whew, sorry for such a long post, take care and peace!

 

[rooke]

we can probably go around and around in circles discussing this, but IMO it boils down to this...

---
I hope you don't mind, but I am interested in discussing this further. If you truly did study with the people you say, and are from that era, and put in the time there, then I need to consider your opinion with more gravitas. But since its the internet and you're anonymous, I'm naturally skeptical. Not a slam against you. I'm just a jaded old guy, so I don't take things at face value.

how can you let something go, when you don't have it in the first place?

---
Look at Van Halen... He had minimal guitar lessons, but took off on his own, and led the way. There are many people who pioneer new trails and make significant contributions without ever getting official titles or ranks in their parent field.

Bruce Lee's Jun Fan JKD's very foundation and core is based on Wing Chun concepts and principles and "body structure". Look at Bruce Lee's early version of Jun Fan Gung Fu, it was "forward facing" not shoulder turning, it was planted on both feet, not lifting the heels and doing a "toe heel sway". little by little he changed it to fit his strengths which at that time were his physical attributes.

---
Yes. I agree with this. But it was more than his "physical attributes". It was cross training with western boxers, wrestlers, judoka, and a host of other arts that he may not have been fully exposed to (or at least to a similar level) in Hong Kong. His changes have alot to do with environment, not just physicality.

Hawkins Cheung is the one who told me, that NOBODY, no matter how hard they tried, could touch Yip Man. That Yip Man would go down the line of students giving them all a chance, one by one, and he would completely control each and every student. And you have to understand that Wong Shun Leung, Hawkins Cheung, Bruce Lee etc..they were "fighters", always trying to prove that they were better than the other, testing their skills on other gangs, they were not "bow" to sifu Yip Man, "yes sir, no sir". heck no, they were not like that in those days. they would address Yip Man as the "old man", lol.

---
1) People always romanticize how GREAT their teachers were. People from old school arts do that even more.
2) The students also realized that getting lessons from Yip Man was crucial to advance...and being too disrespectful meant you wouldn't get the "real goods". I've been there before with OTHER instructors. Besides, they weren't there to see if they could BEAT Yip Man. They were there to learn Wing Chun. That's a big difference. And the old school masters would withhold whatever they wanted on a whim, from their students. Why else are there so many different interpretations of Wing Chun from a single lineage?

anyways, this is only my opinion, but the way wing chun is taught in the Jun Fan JKD is not "classical wing chun" where you actually learn every part, but rather it's Bruce Lee's "modified" version.

---
We agree here.

I personally think that instead of learning it from a "modified" perspective first, learn it from the "classical" version so that you fully understand the "method". then you can alter it to suit your own needs, but at this point, you'll alter it to fit YOU and nobody else. exactly what Bruce Lee did.

---
Disagree. We build upon the evolution of the past. That's how you evolve. Now I'm speaking theoretically here. Maybe Wing Chun is superior. Maybe not. But I don't need to study Latin, to progress further in fictional writing in English. It might help...but so would studying more English. As for altering a modified version...that presupposes that your teacher doesn't know anything about the original version. Maybe they do and can distill it so you don't need to learn the Mook Jong Form, Sil Lim Tau, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, etc. Maybe you can focus on certain key points and drill them. There are more optimal options in some cases than a Tan Sau.

i understand your point of view, because i used to train exactly like that, the wing chun training i got was only from the Jun Fan JKD classes, and it was the "modified" Bruce Lee's version. But Ron, myself, Joe, Chad, Damon, Justin etc...we all understood it in "theory" but when we sparred in the ring, NOBODY could pull off trapping, and we all resorted back to muay thai clinch, Grappling, Shooto, BJJ, etc...that's when i decided that in order to move "foward" in my martial arts journey, i would have to go "backwards" in my training and start from scratch, which is the classical wing chun.

---
I don't remember if I mentioned it in this thread or another, but I have used it in sparring in an MMA type structure. I've Pak Sao'ed and Lop'ed. But you see it far less in kickboxing, boxing, and MMA because the structures are different. They don't block. They cover. Ergo you won't have the "handle" appear as often. So the trap won't happen. It has nothing to do with skill. It has to do with what the opponent "gave" you.

i guess my point is this, wing chun is a "forward facing" body structure with both feet firmly planted on the ground. boxing, muay thai etc..get there structure by "pivoting" from the "toe heel sway" to the "rotation of the hips" to the "rotation of the shoulders". they are completely different structures, getting power completely different ways. so how do you mix the two when they are completely "opposing" methods?

Its quite easy. When I see the opportunity, I plant and utilize the mechanics in a 1" punch for my jab. Its modified from the goat stance power punch mechanic you get in Chum Kiu. But it is from a modified jab stance. Its my strongest technique, and I've gotten a few shocked looks from the power. And then I switch up. Just like I manage to do a Thai roundhouse and go into a kinjit. Its how you set it up. Its easy enough. And the trapping works quite easily from a simple boxer's parry. I parry and use an inside gunting, step in and pak sao, go to the Plum, and voila. It is actually a very elegant and high percentage sequence.

this is the challenge, some would say, impossible to do. which might even be why Bruce Lee and many JKD instructors today are "shedding" the wing chun which includes the trapping from their training. i really can't say for sure, but again this is only my 2cents, for what it's worth.

---
Some are shedding because they're sparring MMA/kickboxers/boxers, and those folks cover instead of block. But I've used it plenty, and I'm a relative newbie at trapping. I've watched plenty of Wing Chun folks, and plenty of JKD Concept folks. I prefer the JKD Concept ways.

whew, sorry for such a long post, take care and peace!

No problem. So my question is, you trained with these incredible people. Are you saying (and I'm making a leap here) that you discarded all the JKD and other arts you learned for Wing Chun? Because you've mentioned a few times that the body mechanics of other arts are incompatible. So I'm curious.

Rooke

 

[rooke]

I found your youtube clips. There appears to be some interesting things. I started to watch your explanation of Jik Chung Choi, but wasn't able to finish it (gotta get ready for work tomorrow). I agree with alot of what you say, but the criticism of how its normally used leaves out some elements that JKD folks use to do it (at least in what I saw so far). I'll definitely look at the rest.

I may disagree (or I may agree, I don't know yet), but its highly commendable for you to "put it out there". You definitely have significant skill in your areas of study. But you also teach MMA? Are you using Wing Chun as a standup component in that? You don't claim JKD. How long did you study JKD? Just curious. Thanks for the food for thought.

Rooke

 

[simplicity]

I just went earlier this year to Jesse Glover & Ted Wong (First/Last Student of Bruce Lee).... There where WC guys that are studying JKD now.... I have not trained one second in WC.... They asked to do chi-sao with me, because they crossed arms with my students....But during chi-sao they moved out and away from me, one of them told me "Don't BS me you have study WC... I said nope I did not ever...

For saying that you have to go backward to go forward, I would have say not for everyone.... As being a Natiive American, I would say if the shoe fits wear it....But, not every shoes fits every foot.... Hmmm, something to think about!


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

 

[chinaboxer]

I found your youtube clips. There appears to be some interesting things. I started to watch your explanation of Jik Chung Choi, but wasn't able to finish it (gotta get ready for work tomorrow). I agree with alot of what you say, but the criticism of how its normally used leaves out some elements that JKD folks use to do it (at least in what I saw so far). I'll definitely look at the rest.

I may disagree (or I may agree, I don't know yet), but its highly commendable for you to "put it out there". You definitely have significant skill in your areas of study. But you also teach MMA? Are you using Wing Chun as a standup component in that? You don't claim JKD. How long did you study JKD? Just curious. Thanks for the food for thought.

Rooke

Hey Rooke,

i joined the Marine Corps which got me stationed in Southern California back in 1988, I did search & rescue for a Marine Corps helicopter squadron, that's when i began studying at the Inosanto Academy.

i continued there roughly until 1997 and later with my close friend, Dan Sullivan, who i helped open his Jun Fan JKD school. here is a link to his school. http://www.ockickboxing.com/head_instructor.htm

along my martial arts journey, i've also had the great privilege of working privately with Jerry Poteet. He's such a class act.

i still occasionally go train and visit the Inosanto Academy to visit Guru Dan and Yori Nakamura who i think the world of.

I've been doing Wing Chun since 1997 to today's date along with submission grappling and BJJ.

damm..i just realized how f'n old i am! hahahaha...time flies when you're having fun! =D

anyways, back to the topic...

this is my opinion only, based on my experiences only, i want everyone to know that first and foremost. i am only here to share my view.

the problem i think i will most likely have is "communicating" from my "point of view", in other words, i am doing "both sides of the coin", one side being the Jun Fan JKD and the other is the Wing Chun. so my opinions are coming from both perspectives, but most of you, not all, but most of you are studying only "one side of the coin", the JKD side, and that's where "communication" is not fully understood. I'm not saying that "my way" is better than your way, no, no, no. please don't misunderstand what i'm saying.

have i let go of my Jun Fan JKD training? of course not, but do i see it from a completely different "lens" now that i study "both sides"? yes.

Here's one of my favorite stories about the Dalai Lama, that kind of illustrates what i'm trying to say...

"The Dalai Lama was approached one day by a woman and her young son. She asked, "Dalai Lama, can you please tell my son to stop eating sugar. It’s not good for him, and he won’t listen to me. He respects you, and I know he will listen to you."
The Dalai Lama said, "Fine. Come back in a week."
A week later, the woman and her son came back. The Dalai Lama said, "I’m not quite ready. Please come back in another week."
Another week went by, and the woman came back with her son. The Dalai Lama was ready, and he said, "Son, you should stop eating sugar. It is not good for you."
The woman was pleased, but also a bit confused. She said, "Why did it take you so long to say such a simple thing."
The Dalai Lama replied, "When you first came to me, I had not stopped eating sugar myself."
​

my point is that my whole martial arts journey has been to try not to be a hypocrite while researching what works for me while sharing the process along the way with others. this is why i suggested to you that you should give a reputable wing chun school a try and later on down the road, let's have this discussion again over a nice cup of green tea! =D

take care and peace!

 

[simplicity]

How long have did you train with Jerry Poteet.... I've trained with him quite a bit back before he started his org..... I have trained with nine of BL students, as well as Dan I.

 

[chinaboxer]

I just went earlier this year to Jesse Glover & Ted Wong (First/Last Student of Bruce Lee).... There where WC guys that are studying JKD now.... I have not trained one second in WC.... They asked to do chi-sao with me, because they crossed arms with my students....But during chi-sao they moved out and away from me, one of them told me "Don't BS me you have study WC... I said nope I did not ever...

For saying that you have to go backward to go forward, I would have say not for everyone.... As being a Natiive American, I would say if the shoe fits wear it....But, not every shoes fits every foot.... Hmmm, something to think about!


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

John, i respect that you are teaching JKD. i also respect that you like purple, it's my favorite color! =D

so please don't get offended by my comment, because it is not meant to be offensive to you in any way, shape or form.

EVERY Jun Fan JKD instructor i know, from Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, Jerry Poteet etc...have ALL sought out and studied Wing Chun for many years under reputable Wing Chun instructors. this makes sense since Bruce Lee's Jun Fan JKD is founded on wing chun concepts and principles.

So now they see from "both sides of the coin" and get a perspective of "why" Bruce Lee made the choices he did. So now the choices they make in regards to their personal JKD is not random choices but rather very specific to themselves from a very specific "lens".

Now i don't know you personally, and i don't know your martial arts background, but you have to ask yourself, have you done the wing chun "research", not skimming, but intense study from reputable wing chun instructors?

Dan Inosanto said it best whe he used to tell us, "absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own, BUT do not reject it until you have thoroughly researched it first."

this is why i tell my students, "you cannot let something go, if you don't have it in the first place."

take care and peace!

Jin

 

[chinaboxer]

How long have did you train with Jerry Poteet.... I've trained with him quite a bit back before he started his org..... I have trained with nine of BL students, as well as Dan I.

it was roughly about a year, at his house in the valley. why do i feel like i'm in JKD court? hahaha...i'm j/k

 

[James Kovacich]

I just went earlier this year to Jesse Glover & Ted Wong (First/Last Student of Bruce Lee).... There where WC guys that are studying JKD now.... I have not trained one second in WC.... They asked to do chi-sao with me, because they crossed arms with my students....But during chi-sao they moved out and away from me, one of them told me "Don't BS me you have study WC... I said nope I did not ever...

For saying that you have to go backward to go forward, I would have say not for everyone.... As being a Natiive American, I would say if the shoe fits wear it....But, not every shoes fits every foot.... Hmmm, something to think about!


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

John, how is it really going backward if it's the "starting point?" I'm not stating Wing Chun as a starting point but Bruce lee's modified Wing Chun is to quickly discounted.

I choose (because of Sifu's training) not to drop it without knowing forsure it is useless.

Had I started under a differant instructor I may feel differantly but my initial question is to me, valid.

 

[rooke]

Hey Rooke,

i joined the Marine Corps which got me stationed in Southern California back in 1988, I did search & rescue for a Marine Corps helicopter squadron, that's when i began studying at the Inosanto Academy.

i continued there roughly until 1997 and later with my close friend, Dan Sullivan, who i helped open his Jun Fan JKD school. here is a link to his school. http://www.ockickboxing.com/head_instructor.htm

along my martial arts journey, i've also had the great privilege of working privately with Jerry Poteet. He's such a class act.

i still occasionally go train and visit the Inosanto Academy to visit Guru Dan and Yori Nakamura who i think the world of.

I've been doing Wing Chun since 1997 to today's date along with submission grappling and BJJ.

damm..i just realized how f'n old i am! hahahaha...time flies when you're having fun! =D

anyways, back to the topic...

this is my opinion only, based on my experiences only, i want everyone to know that first and foremost. i am only here to share my view.

the problem i think i will most likely have is "communicating" from my "point of view", in other words, i am doing "both sides of the coin", one side being the Jun Fan JKD and the other is the Wing Chun. so my opinions are coming from both perspectives, but most of you, not all, but most of you are studying only "one side of the coin", the JKD side, and that's where "communication" is not fully understood. I'm not saying that "my way" is better than your way, no, no, no. please don't misunderstand what i'm saying.

have i let go of my Jun Fan JKD training? of course not, but do i see it from a completely different "lens" now that i study "both sides"? yes.

Here's one of my favorite stories about the Dalai Lama, that kind of illustrates what i'm trying to say...

"The Dalai Lama was approached one day by a woman and her young son. She asked, "Dalai Lama, can you please tell my son to stop eating sugar. It’s not good for him, and he won’t listen to me. He respects you, and I know he will listen to you."
The Dalai Lama said, "Fine. Come back in a week."
A week later, the woman and her son came back. The Dalai Lama said, "I’m not quite ready. Please come back in another week."
Another week went by, and the woman came back with her son. The Dalai Lama was ready, and he said, "Son, you should stop eating sugar. It is not good for you."
The woman was pleased, but also a bit confused. She said, "Why did it take you so long to say such a simple thing."
The Dalai Lama replied, "When you first came to me, I had not stopped eating sugar myself."
​

my point is that my whole martial arts journey has been to try not to be a hypocrite while researching what works for me while sharing the process along the way with others. this is why i suggested to you that you should give a reputable wing chun school a try and later on down the road, let's have this discussion again over a nice cup of green tea! =D

take care and peace!

Hey Chinaboxer, I guess this is where we disagree. You're arguing about the ORIGINAL Jun Fan Gung Fu as its presented. I'm arguing the JKD Concept folks who've studied Wing Chun or learned from JKD folks who studied Wing Chun, but maintaiin their kickboxing structure.

I have not studied the original Jun Fan Gung Fu, nor is that my interest. So I cannot judge its effectiveness in trapping versus Wing Chun. I however, believe that the knowledge that Guro Inosanto learned has been distilled and presented to his class.

As a result, given the kickboxing structure and his experience, his trapping will not follow typical Wing Chun.

I do respect where you're coming from. Its hard to take a hard-line about what IS and what ISN'T.

So are you using the Wing Chun as your standup in your MMA class then? Instead of a kickboxing base?

Rooke

 

[chinaboxer]

Hey Chinaboxer, I guess this is where we disagree. You're arguing about the ORIGINAL Jun Fan Gung Fu as its presented. I'm arguing the JKD Concept folks who've studied Wing Chun or learned from JKD folks who studied Wing Chun, but maintaiin their kickboxing structure.

I have not studied the original Jun Fan Gung Fu, nor is that my interest. So I cannot judge its effectiveness in trapping versus Wing Chun. I however, believe that the knowledge that Guro Inosanto learned has been distilled and presented to his class.

As a result, given the kickboxing structure and his experience, his trapping will not follow typical Wing Chun.

I do respect where you're coming from. Its hard to take a hard-line about what IS and what ISN'T.

So are you using the Wing Chun as your standup in your MMA class then? Instead of a kickboxing base?

Rooke

Original JKD, Traditional JKD, whatever JKD, that's a whole different can of worms, huh. i really try hard to stay out of the "politics" of it all, this also happens in Wing Chun.

i try my best to focus on the "similarities" rather than the "differences" of both JKD and WC.

it's the "similarities" that bind us together and the "differences" that tear us apart. this also happens in religion and many other subjects as well.

yes, i do use the wing chun as my choice of stand up in MMA, my goal is simple, that no matter what "range" i'm in, i want to rely on "one method".

as it stands today, MMA fighters rely on two separate methods. when they are on their feet, they rely on "speed and power" through the rotation of the body to get power, the bigger faster fighter has all the advantages using this method, but you always hear, on the feet "you always have a punchers chance."

but once they are on the ground and grappling, it suddenly becomes "chess" and its all about who has the best "feel", where "sensitivity" overcomes the stronger, faster fighter. when fighters are grappling, you never hear "you always have a grapplers chance". in other words, on the ground, they coincide with many of the wing chun concepts and principles.

so i've been doing my best to come up with a method that does not change no matter what range you are in. it's always the same, which is "sensitivity" over "strength", "listening skill" over "speed", "facing" vs "turning" etc...

will it ever happen? who the heck knows, but at least i'm trying to find my way.

 

[simplicity]

John, how is it really going backward if it's the "starting point?" I'm not stating Wing Chun as a starting point but Bruce lee's modified Wing Chun is to quickly discounted.

I choose (because of Sifu's training) not to drop it without knowing forsure it is useless.

Had I started under a differant instructor I may feel differantly but my initial question is to me, valid.

James,
my friend how you doing? I hope all is well.... I wrote this:

For saying that you have to go backward to go forward, I would have to say not for everyone.... As being a Natiive American, I would say if the shoe fits wear it....But, not every shoes fits every foot.... Hmmm, something to think about!

Bro that's all I'm saying...Simple huh? As far as Bruce lee's modified Wing Chun.... Right on and yes guys I do teach the energy training stuff..... James I speaking from experience and JKD modified energy training which in my post I never said I discounted....


What I don't agree about is that everyone has to go that route.... Also, so that everyone knows I have trained in both so called groups of thought JKDC & OJKD.... I'm neither and don't agree with either one's approach to BL art, but I do teach Jeet Kune Do.. The founder did say this would happen....Ya know, please this isn't about this and I don't want to be flamed.... I'm just letting people know where my experience has taking me...

 

[simplicity]

it was roughly about a year, at his house in the valley. why do i feel like i'm in JKD court? hahaha...i'm j/k

Awesome! I have trained with Jerry as well, for six years at his house many times, at my school many times and at his other students school's as well.... Jerry is a great Jeet Kune Do teacher for sure... He has gave me the keys that unlock all door's....Those are his words not mine....


Please don't take what I say wrong....By the way, you know my name what is yours? You seem like you are a nice person... But I still don't agree that one will have to learn WC to understand JKD energy training....Some but not all....It ok to not see things through my eye's, as I can't see through your eye's as well....


Keep "IT" Real,
John McNabney

 

[simplicity]

Now i don't know you personally, and i don't know your martial arts background, but you have to ask yourself, have you done the wing chun "research", not skimming, but intense study from reputable wing chun instructors?

Maybe when I'm in Cali we can hang out....I've been training since 1969, my father was my first teacher in Karate Do.... He was in every south pacific battle in WW2, he was one of the few that trained in Old School Karate Do....and brought it back home...


I'm sorry but I don't need to go to any WC instructor....

 

[James Kovacich]

James,
my friend how you doing? I hope all is well.... I wrote this:

Bro that's all I'm saying...Simple huh? As far as Bruce lee's modified Wing Chun.... Right on and yes guys I do teach the energy training stuff..... James I speaking from experience and JKD modified energy training which in my post I never said I discounted....


What I don't agree about is that everyone has to go that route.... Also, so that everyone knows I have trained in both so called groups of thought JKDC & OJKD.... I'm neither and don't agree with either one's approach to BL art, but I do teach Jeet Kune Do.. The founder did say this would happen....Ya know, please this isn't about this and I don't want to be flamed.... I'm just letting people know where my experience has taking me...

John you are one of the few that walks "the path" unbiased by the camps, branches and all the BS. I don't beleive that everyone has to follow that route either. Where your 1st instructor starts us is out of our control. But I did start there and my heart in MA reverts back to what I know best (*** kickin of course).

But for real I think you know I've had it with some people. Those guys that really piss me off (you know who they are) about the "one true way." They are really getting under my skin.

Take care my friend, James

 

[James Kovacich]

Don't trip guys I'm not talking about people here at MT.