Dropping the Trapping in JKD

[bphodgesus]

IMHO the thing to remember about JKD and trapping is that hitting makes trapping work, not the other way around. The wing chun influence is more about centerline and pressure, than the traditional trapping techniques. Some of the Wing Chun techniques and some of the more combative drills (think four corners, chi sao not sil lum tao, bil gee) are very useful in developing the feel of close up fighting. The use of trapping is to remove an obstruction to strike. If there is no obstruction, just hit. If there is an obstruction, go around it like with jao sao, or remove it. The repeated performance of these techniques and training methods develop sensitivity, or feel and trains the neural pathways to hit reflexively at the spinal reflex level allowing for hitting before the brain needs to process the stimuli. As far as if it can be used in a fight, well in my younger days I have seen it work some. As a noob I will now go back to reading and learning.

 

[Bodhisattva]

IMHO the thing to remember about JKD and trapping is that hitting makes trapping work, not the other way around. The wing chun influence is more about centerline and pressure, than the traditional trapping techniques. Some of the Wing Chun techniques and some of the more combative drills (think four corners, chi sao not sil lum tao, bil gee) are very useful in developing the feel of close up fighting. The use of trapping is to remove an obstruction to strike. If there is no obstruction, just hit. If there is an obstruction, go around it like with jao sao, or remove it. The repeated performance of these techniques and training methods develop sensitivity, or feel and trains the neural pathways to hit reflexively at the spinal reflex level allowing for hitting before the brain needs to process the stimuli. As far as if it can be used in a fight, well in my younger days I have seen it work some. As a noob I will now go back to reading and learning.

Greco Roman is much, much, much more efficient at solving those very same problems, in my opinion.

Well, no, in LOTS of people's experience - not just opinion - and not just mine.

 

[bphodgesus]

You may be right, or not. It all depends. There are Wendy's and Taco Bell, etc. Different tastes for all. Good luck in your training and exploration.

 

[paulH]

Same thing with Straight Blast Gym. They droped the Wing Chun years ago and added greco roman and muay thai clinch tactics to replace them.

Trapping in wing chun is useless against a qualified greco roman wrestlers. Really, it's useless against most people.

muay thai clinch is pretty useless in a street fight as well...

if the legs are wide enough to balance properly the groin is open...

if the legs are close enough to protect the grion then then there is a good chance of taking them off balance...

we had a wing chun guy come to train with us and it helped reinforce to me that jkd employs modified trapping rather than classical...

i wouldnt say trapping is something i look to use but if an arm is left in there and i can controll it easily i will... likewise if i can clear a path to the trachea easily i will...

its another tool... however complex trapping drills only serve a limited purose imo... as in most real situatins somebody is not going to counter 3 or 4 punches... the chances are the 1st or second will connect as unless your fighting a skilled martial artist they probably wont be capable of blocking...

The other advantage of trapping is that if you grapple or clinch the other person can grab back... which in a street situatin could let somebody come behind you and stab you or just generally mess you up... trapping lets you stay on your feet and therefore more able to react to multiple attacker scenarios...

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

its another tool... however complex trapping drills only serve a limited purose imo... as in most real situatins somebody is not going to counter 3 or 4 punches...

That's how I see it...and I LOVE trapping.
If multiple traps are happening like that, then you are staying in that Zone for too long.

You should be kicking/kneeing breaking away or clinching and going to a takedown. The trap is only as useful as the hit or takedown it sets up.

The people that try to "skip" the trapping range are missing out just as much as those who get STUCK in the trapping range.

RE: Usefullness of trapping in MMA...generally neither fighter is good at it so who knows?
I'm not crazy enough to Cage-Fight so I won't ever know

jmp

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Oh yeah...that was my first post.
Sorry to have an opinion on my first post!

My background is JKD concepts.
My teacher put a big emphasis on Traps but as a VERY TEMPORARY SITUATION and just as a transition to something else.

jmp

 

[Flatlander]

I don't know, guys. Nobody has the right answer. My personal answer is based upon the following truths:

1) One cannot choose what is useful to them without first knowing and understanding the available options. Given that, one would be hard pressed to make an informed decision without sufficient discovery.

2) One who learns not how to trap, knows not how to trap. Therefore, one is unable to teach the art of the trap to others. Put another way, once the Aztec culture died, it was very difficult to resurrect the spoken language.

3) Trapping drills are simply drills, meant to impart the essence of a concept. Nobody fights using drills or kata.

Perhaps there are other, better ways to learn the skill of immobilizing appendages for the purpose of clearing striking lanes, whilst simultaneously retarding the target's ability to strike. Perhaps. What I can say for sure is that I'm most certainly grateful for having this concept shared with me. Without having learned the concept, I'd be without it. Of this I am certain.

 

[geezer]

... One who learns not how to trap, knows not how to trap. Therefore, one is unable to teach the art of the trap to others. Put another way, once the Aztec culture died, it was very difficult to resurrect the spoken language.

"One who learns not..." Yoda, is that you talking?

"...It was difficult to resurrect the spoken (Aztec) language..." It never died. Central Mexico has many thousands of Nahua (Aztec) speakers to this day, and tribes speaking closely related Uto-Aztecan tougues are found here in the States too. Now if you could resurrect some of the Aztec fighting arts, you might really have something!

As far as trapping goes, for me "JKD" still means finding a martial path that reflects your individuality. If you can make trapping work for you, use it! Otherwise, why bother?

 

[Flatlander]

"One who learns not..." Yoda, is that you talking?

No. Yoda is a fictional character. I, on the other hand, am in fact quite real.

"...It was difficult to resurrect the spoken (Aztec) language..." It never died. Central Mexico has many thousands of Nahua (Aztec) speakers to this day, and tribes speaking closely related Uto-Aztecan tougues are found here in the States too.

Sorry, it was late, and I'm no scholar. Perhaps I meant the Mayan written language. Again, my apologies for the inaccuracy. Notwithstanding the imprecision of the metaphor, it seems to me that the point remains valid.

As far as trapping goes, for me "JKD" still means finding a martial path that reflects your individuality. If you can make trapping work for you, use it! Otherwise, why bother?

Hard to argue with the gist of this statement, though again I'd like to reiterate that it becomes rather challenging to accept one's decision as well reasoned if one isn't considering all the facts. Which is to say, one must first learn and know how to trap, and then expose the technique to testing before one can arrive at the decision. Therefore, it seems to me that the teaching of trapping ought remain an essential part of a JKD curriculum. However, I'm no teacher, and I'm certainly no master. I am simply a contemplative fellow with a mind and a keyboard.

As an aside, I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting for a second that the classical, rigid, wing chun trap is the way. I am merely proposing that the concept of trapping is valid enough to teach, whatever your methodology.

 

[geezer]

... I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting for a second that the classical, rigid, wing chun trap is the way. I am merely proposing that the concept of trapping is valid enough to teach, whatever your methodology.

Pardon me, I was born a wise-***. In actual fact, I agree completely with your statement. And I'd go you one further to suggest that, if trapping has gotten a bad rap, it's because it's not being properly taught and used. That's not saying that it's for everybody, ...just that it can definitely be a useful tool.

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

I teach it and teach my students to use it in combat. Alot of people just cant apply but that is no need to drop it.

 

[g-bells]

If you don't believe you need it then don't work it, it's just a tool in ones tool box.I'd rather have it personally but to each their own.

If you have the chance , check out Steve Gordy's tape on trapping, incredible piece of info and very informative and easy to apply

 

[The Anarchist]

I don't know where to begin, but I do know about this stuff.

That traditional trapping you see doesn't work in fighting, because it isn't meant for fighting, not the stuff you see anyway. It's the concept that you're supposed to understand. Why? Because it's very abstract, something that isn't very well defined. It cannot be proven with empirical logic, and yet it is not really hogwash.

You can learn other stuff that is "packaged and ready to go" like MMA, and that'll learn you some good things in a short amount of time. This is your choice.

I'm a left brained, and a right brained person, so I understand abstractions, and I can apply them realistically. If you do not wish to pursue abstract concepts, well like I said, it is your choice.

We all make choices. BTW, I see more people who are either left brained, or right brained. It kinda figures, that's why there's usually two sides to every argument.

 

[The Anarchist]

Yeah Mr Kovacich, "it". The abstraction thingy I was talking about.

 

[Franc0]

From what I've gathered, I'm guessing that if Bruce Lee was still alive today, he might have dropped trapping from "his" JKD alltogether.
Though some would question the sincerity of his personal views, Joe Lewis mentioned something about Lee wanting to drop trapping from his JKD.
http://www.mikemiles.com/lewis.html This interview mentions it.
Personally, I like to keep some basic trapping skills in my toolbox due to my old school mantra "Better to have the tool and never use it, than to need it and never have it". Bruce might have dropped it, but he always had it, just in case

Franco

 

[Franc0]

Another thought on this. Would their trapping skills really be dropped? Once learned, do the trapping skills disappear because of the doubt of it's ability to apply, or are they just put away in the "tool box" due to expansion, boredom, epiphanies? Sometimes, the building of ones skill is due to the ability to learn, assimilate & dissect what's out there, and what works for the individual. So the question in my mind is, if I went to an instructor with the goal of being as good as the instructor is, is that instructor going to teach me everything it took to get there, or what that instructor feels works best at that time for themself? Whew!

Franco

 

[Smoke]

I am weighing in this because of my background with PFS and other groups.

I also haven't had time to read the sheer volume of posts here, which I will ultimately do. I'm sure what I have to say has probably already been said in some form or another.

Trapping still exists, if we think of it merely as a concept instead of as a specific set of techniques. As I've said on other posts (and I realize I'm in a posting frenzy, if you'll forgive me), trapping can exist in a variety of forms outside of the Wing Chun school of thought (Greco-Roman for example).

That said, if we even bother to look at Wing Chun as a concept instead some composite style, we can see it's just a method of teaching mechanics that can be applied in a variety of ways.

One of my goals presently is to make the techniques that I have learned from wing chun, panantukan, silat and others WORKABLE within the context of MMA sparring. So far, I've discovered that if your timing is right, you can make almost anything work. But to do this, you have to move outside of ridgid, stylistic thinking. You also have to be willing to drop those that prove to be unworkable. Ironically, I believe we have heard this somewhere before, not so long ago by someone saying, "use no way as way".

It's there. YOU have to find it.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . 3) Trapping drills are simply drills, meant to impart the essence of a concept. Nobody fights using drills or kata.quote]

I have used trapping or trapped opponents in several altercations with excellent results. I also use it quite successfully when sparring with students and find it easy to apply. If you're not able to do it or use it, it's because you don't understand it fully or train enough to acquire the skill.

A lot of people attempt to trap without actually understanding it. You are right in trapping is not a drill but a skill. People copy a trapping drill shown to them step by step (1 then 2 then 3) and don't understand all the principles and concepts that govern trapping. Trapping is not do position 1, you should get this response, so do position 2, then you should get this response, then do position 3, and so on and so on. Trapping is a skill that is obtained through practice and reading the energy, following certain guidelines, and principles. You opponent dictates how they will be trapped, not you. You cannot force a trap, your oppenent actually traps themselves, you just guide them to the point where they are trapped.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . .As an aside, I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting for a second that the classical, rigid, wing chun trap is the way. I am merely proposing that the concept of trapping is valid enough to teach, whatever your methodology.

Wing Chun trapping is not rigid! ! ! It is creative, flowing, and explosive. If someone finds it rigid it is because they have limited it to that in their mind and the way one thinks of it. Therefore they have limited themselves to the idea that trapping is rigid and not useful and will not fully understand how to utilize trapping. 'You must first empty your cup so I can pour you some tea.'

 

[rooke]

Simple answer. Find a GOOD JKD teacher who also does trapping. Spar with them a few times, so you have a few hours. Film it.

Did he trap you at all? If so, was it an effective and optimal response to the situation in that microsecond?

If yes, then trapping had validity. If no, then its still unknown (mathematic rule...easier to prove something exists, than to prove it doesn't exist)...but it does yield more ammo for that case.

Have you >EVER< thrown a punch at someone? Did they bob/weave/sway/move back/cover? Then trapping wasn't useful in those scenarios. Did they ever block with their arm? Then there was an opportunity. Trapping isn't just about having both of their arms tied-up. Its about creating a bridge, and using that as a safe entry point to another range. Bridging is used in multiple arts, and very successful. That's part of what Hubud is all about. People can too confined into imagining some convoluted double arm tie-up for trapping, and not concentrating on the sectoring and zoning of just pushing an arm away so you're on the outside, or its other manifestations. Sometimes traps just manifest as really good blocks, that keep the opponent's arm away for awhile as they use their free hand and punch away. Trapping is a very broad and general area of study, with the flashy stuff being a small part of it.

Rooke

PS: I've had bridging used on me, and have used it successfully on folks in friendly MMA sparring. I consider it a worthwhile edition.