Denying our nature?

[qwksilver61]

no not alone..... not be taken literally...I am being sarcastic....Sometimes when people get fed up with the news they just want to be left alone....general consensus....by normal people...with feelings....not scholarly read like books.... without feelings...please do not take this post as an insult this is a forum,I did not mean to offend....

 

[teekin]

Ahhh, thats ok. In person I am pretty soft and easy going. Some days instead of sparring I get into tickle fights with my partners. It's just here, in the forum, that I have had to engage the logic circuits (due to some twit with pack mentality who mistakes kindness for weakness) that I may come across as cold or aggressive. No offence taken at all. No worries mate. My appologies.
lori m

 

[Brian King]

Thanks for posting the thread theletch1 I have been thinking about the subject and the material posted by the contributors off and on since this thread first posted. My apologies for my delay in replying it has taken me awhile to get my thoughts clear on the subject. My opinion has changed back and forth the deeper I thought about the subject. I want to say that we are as a species evolving for the better but I know that we are fallen and imperfect. I had just managed to convince myself and form the argument that we have indeed evolved thanks to some of the posts but then I read an article such as this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html?ex=1372392000&en=7915acb07161faf6& ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
“Tiny Voices Defy Child Marriage in Yemen”.

The link is the story about that little brave ten year old child that asked for (and was granted) a divorce from her abusive thirty year old husband. I cannot say that as a species we are evolving when things like the above not only happen regularly but are accepted as matter of course in a large part of the world and with some of the world’s major religions. As much as I would dearly love to believe that we as a species are evolving for the better yet I cannot put that wish against the story linked to above, against the violence I have witnessed.

This brings to my mind a question. If we are not evolving as a species as many including myself in this thread seem to believe, how then does that relate to the theory of evolution or the theory of modern evolutionary synthesis as they are taught in many schools? I have always had a problem with the theories of evolution in that I have not seen evidence of one species evolving into another but readily admit that I am no expert on the matter.

I am wondering about the opinion of some of the other posters in this thread. If you believe that we as a species are not evolving or are evolving do you then believe that the theory of evolution might have some kind of flaw? If not how do you relate the two opinions?

Thanks for your thoughts
Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think man kind as a whole has been moving forward and making gains. However, at our base core we are still a predator. One only needs to look at the way our eyes are set and you will see that this is true. Knowing that it should not be surprising that violence is in our nature. Still your average person in the US probably will not experience too much violence during the course of their life. That is improvement but does not necessarily mean that our nature has changed.

 

[kaizasosei]

just because violence is not physical does not mean that it is not violence. im not trying to establish a niceness police or anything, but i do believe it to be true that violence can be very diverse.
in essence violence is malicious intent. however, in many if not most violent encounters there are aspects of confusion where the offenders indignantly believe that they are doing the right thing.

that is why i believe that violence is a form of sick love. and that physical violence is the result of emotional violence. from parents, from society or by other vortexes of good and evil. in my book, those that are capable of physical violence are displaying a deep desire for love. those that are incapable of or greedily sickened by human contact and the happiness of others, are the true origins of the physical violence that people can see. much is instinctive, with fear, hatred or lack of sensitivity(=hightened sensitivity) playing active roles so that it seems that the human being is just a puppet of spirits or hormones, chemicals or magnetic fields.??

fighting is something very natural. fight for country or for family or for the spot in line at the supermarket. there are many levels of fighting, both objective and even more so subjective.
i believe that the crucial ingredient to what constitutes good or evil are the intentions behind the actions. of course, that is quite invisible and difficult to measure or observe.

i do note that in many parts of the world, society has taken a turn and even gone out of its way to avoid physical violence, to hide it, and to shun it out of fear. however, in essence, i do believe in so doing, we are to some extent denying our true nature. and the further the society runs away fromt the physical violence the more they seem to me to gravitate towards selfhatred and nonphysical violence- a vicious circle where cowardice and hatred play the biggest roles.

j

 

[Ray]

So now more people can practice their ideals? Did more people want to before but couldn't? Not proveable. What can be proveed is that altruism is on the rise. What was once common practice is now thought of as brutal and illegal (treatment of mental patients), abuse of animals, child labor, wife as Property. A wife can now charge her husband with rape, this was NOT the case as few as 50 years ago. 100 years ago a husband a man could beat his wife to death as she was propery to be disposed of as he saw fit, the same as his dog or his house or his horse. The change in additudes and thinking has Zippo to do with technology. It has to do with waht is inherently known in the Human Heart and Soul as Right and Wrong; and That is Evololving!
Can we be pulled back down into being repltiles, yep. It is simpler, easier, black and white. Much more direct, no ambiguities there, no delayed gratification, all Id all the time, who ever is the most violent wins. But, as I say. We have evolved.

You can attribute those changes to evolution if you want. You can even attribute them to a rise in altrusim. I attribute it to zeitgeist. Unless you can find some 'altruistic' gene and show evidence of it being more pronounced in today's people, I don't believe you can prove it.

(I also don't believe anyone "proves" anything except in mathematics and other invented systems; no one brings proof to court, they bring evidence which is enough to allow a decision to be made...I've seen defense attornies use this kind of thing when they try to get a jury to believe that an otherwise reasonable decision is faulty because there may always be that "wee, little bit" of the unknown/unproven.).

 

[teekin]

Ron, I am off to another class, feeding Id once again. Finding ways to become faster, more aggressive, a more formitable opponent, But I shall reply tomorrow when I am not rushed, thanks for replying to me sir.
lori

 

[BlueDragon1981]

This quote kind of reminded me of human nature

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
- Jack Handey

 

[celtic_crippler]

Charity. Common Good.
Up until a century or so ago the vast majority of the population was stuggling to survive. It was all about "Looking After My Genes".
Within a hundred years we now freely give millions of dollars to complete strangers with no thought of what we can get in return. Little kids will send their piggy bank money to help refuges from a war half way around the globe. Schools will collect tinned goods for a village wiped out by natural disaster. People like Mother Theresa can command the leaders of the most powerful nations on earth, and by God they listen. ( what would happen if Mr. Bush has disrespected Mother Theresa? Why didn't the Muslims assassinate her?)
Lori ( spelling police, please excuse, no filter on this computor)

Not trying to play the cynic, but you're WRONG.

There are plenty of people living today that would claim they are struggling to survive.

Charity has existed as long as man. We may have huge Non-Profits today, but the church played the primary role in the past, and before that the villages people belonged to.

Nothing you cited is evidence of any evolution as a species. Even if I subscribed to your assertion that charity came about in the last 100 years, it still would not explain away man's base characteristic to destroy one another, take advantage of those weaker, and basically be slaves to our greed. :snipe2:

So now more people can practice their ideals? Did more people want to before but couldn't? Not proveable. What can be proveed is that altruism is on the rise. What was once common practice is now thought of as brutal and illegal (treatment of mental patients), abuse of animals, child labor, wife as Property. A wife can now charge her husband with rape, this was NOT the case as few as 50 years ago. 100 years ago a husband a man could beat his wife to death as she was propery to be disposed of as he saw fit, the same as his dog or his house or his horse. The change in additudes and thinking has Zippo to do with technology. It has to do with waht is inherently known in the Human Heart and Soul as Right and Wrong; and That is Evololving!
Can we be pulled back down into being repltiles, yep. It is simpler, easier, black and white. Much more direct, no ambiguities there, no delayed gratification, all Id all the time, who ever is the most violent wins. But, as I say. We have evolved.
Lori

Behaviors have been modified due to things such as law, technological advances like surveilance (there's that darn technology again), and peer/public pressures. BUT that does not change one's BASE.

It's like the whole idea behind redemption. If you say you're sorry, but exhibit the same behavior you're supposedly sorry for....are you really sorry?

Because I don't rob the ATM because there's a camera that would increase my chances of being caught does not make me a better person, or evolved.

My 'nana growing up told me when I was 4 (I've always remembered it) that character is about what you do when nobody's watching. If "nobody was watching" do you honestly think the vast majority of people would still be less violent?

I guess some of this boils down to how much "faith" we have in people. I know I tend to be cynical, while some appear to lean towards the ideal. Personally, I'll believe we've evolved once we no longer require money to get what we need, the only deaths on the planet are natural ones (or due to an accident), there's no corruption in our leadership, and prisons are practically non-existant.

 

[SensibleManiac]

My $0.02:

1. We're no more "evolved" than we were thousands of years ago sitting around in a cave banging on rocks....our technology has improved, as a species we have not.

2. All fights, wars, and blood-shed are a result of "greed." You got something I want so I'm gonna kill you for it. Underneath all the propaganda and flag waving....it's greed.

Without a major physcial/mental/spiritual evolution involved, I doubt things will ever change.

There is evidence that the first statement is not true and I completely agree with the second one.
We have evolved greatly from "thousands" of years ago, and there is proof of this, however we're not as evolved as we'd like to believe.

 

[Blindside]

We have evolved greatly from "thousands" of years ago, and there is proof of this, however we're not as evolved as we'd like to believe.

If you are talking about 200,000 years ago and our split from the Neanderthals, we're good. If you are talking about "evolved greatly" since that point, I'd like to see/hear/cite some evidence.

EDIT: OK, I found some interesting stuff of recent evolution, cool, but nothing that could/would indicate how those changes could impact something as nebulous as altruism.