Definition of Power

[Ceicei]

Some questions and thoughts I've been thinking from different sources within American Kenpo. This is an issue I've been thinking about for several weeks. I thought I understood, but now I am beginning to realize it is more than what I thought it was....

1) What is power?
2) Is it physical, psychological, mental, or a combination?
3) Is it more than "chi"?
4) When people say "do it with power", what does that mean?
5) Can power be present with muscle tension or in a relaxed state?
6) How can being "relaxed" generate more power?
7) Are there more than one type of power? If not, is power just one type, but handled differently?

- Ceicei

 

[Mark Weiser]

Wow you really opened up a big discussion on this thread lol.

1.) Power is ability to deliver a movement to its intended target and to be effective.

2) The actual answer is combination once the physical power is mastered you move into the spirtual portion of power.

3.) From my understanding of CHI is the energy one is able to muster up in order to deliver movements. CHI is usually associated with softer arts that are more religious in nature if I may use that term.

4.) It means different things to different people and instructors.

5.) Again it depends on the Art you study and the delivery of the movement and its purpose.

6.) Relaxed state inables you to focus on the incoming attack and clear your mind and not be distracted by any outside thoughts or stimulus therefore giving one self the ability to become faster ie reaction time.

7.) There again it depends on the art you study and the Instrutor.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[Goldendragon7]

Some questions and thoughts I've been thinking from different sources within American Kenpo. This is an issue I've been thinking about for several weeks. I thought I understood, but now I am beginning to realize it is more than what I thought it was....

1) What is power?

We define POWER as the ability to channel strength to achieve maximum force. When executed properly it looks like force that is being expended without effort.

2) Is it physical, psychological, mental, or a combination?

A combination of all three, you must 1st have a mindset to perceive what you want to do then the next action is the mental signals to your muscle centers which drives the physical if proper conditioning has been achieved.

3) Is it more than "chi"?

Chi is a Chinese term used to define the final result of harmoniously combining the mind, breath, & physical processes to achieve desired results.

4) When people say "do it with power", what does that mean?

Normally it means Strength to most, but to achieve this there are several factors involved.

5) Can power be present with muscle tension or in a relaxed state?

A certain amount of power can be present with muscle tension but to achieve maximum results you need to be relaxed until the proper moment (timing) then tense the muscles to utilize their benefits.

6) How can being "relaxed" generate more power?

Being "relaxed" is associated with the body's state prior and after contact or engagement. If you are tense prior to blocking, kicking, etc., you will retard your movements and thus hamper speed. Upon impact with a block/strike you must have muscle tension to achieve maximum effect.

7) Are there more than one type of power? If not, is power just one type,
but handled differently?

Sure, there is mental power, physical power, spiritual strength.

 

[Ceicei]

We define POWER as the ability to channel strength to achieve maximum force. When executed properly it looks like force that is being expended without effort.

Force expended without effort. Ummm. That would explain why excellent kenpoists look like they can move so smoothly and yet be so devastating at contact.

A combination of all three, you must 1st have a mindset to perceive what you want to do then the next action is the mental signals to your muscle centers which drives the physical if proper conditioning has been achieved.

In other words, power of all three depends upon the proper/correct functioning of these parts? Power is non-existent should any part fail? Would it be possible to have the mindset but not have the physical followthrough? These things could be independent, but works better together to achieve the effect of "force being expended without effort".

Chi is a Chinese term used to define the final result of harmoniously combining the mind, breath, & physical processes to achieve desired results.

So is Chi another word for power?

Normally it means Strength to most, but to achieve this there are several factors involved.

I understood it to mean strength also, but when I listened to Ed Parker Jr. at a recent seminar, he apparently meant "power" with a different meaning than just strength. What are these factors? How do these figure in this equation?

A certain amount of power can be present with muscle tension but to achieve maximum results you need to be relaxed until the proper moment (timing) then tense the muscles to utilize their benefits.

Being "relaxed" is associated with the body's state prior and after contact or engagement. If you are tense prior to blocking, kicking, etc., you will retard your movements and thus hamper speed. Upon impact with a block/strike you must have muscle tension to achieve maximum effect.

Ahhh. You answered and resolved a lot of my questions. Let me rephrase to see if I am understanding you correctly. In throwing a punch, for example, just "glide" with the punch (using correct stance, torque, proper positioning) to generate speed-power and then that split second before contact, tense the muscles to generate force-power?

Sure, there is mental power, physical power, spiritual strength.

So essentially power differs and has their own separate process.

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Power = the ability to create change through intent. A well-formed understanding of the change you wish to create must necessarily exist prior to focusing physical efforts & mental energy through the prism of Will.

Without some degree of foreknowledge -- real or concieved -- of the desired end result, action is conducted without a map, and becomes directionless effort...creating nothing. More speed? Physical timing/coordination? Greater strength/authority on delivery? These are guiding conceptualizations which have steered the efforts of biomechanical explorers & engineers (aka, "Kenpoists") in developing the tools and principals necessary for their achievement.

Set your intent (for example, to know more about Power as an entity in its various manifestations), and the rest will eventually follow. There is no force in the universe greater than the intent of a Soul determined to know and express its Self.

Regards,

Dave

 

[OC Kid]

Power = Mass Times Acceleration squared.

 

[Michael Billings]

Power = Mass Times Acceleration squared.

A good and accurate physics definition.

But also take into consideration the other factors referenced in the first post and expanded upon. I think it is a Green Belt Saying (actually the last one)

• [font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]Will power is the hammer that drives action.[/size][/font]

Spiritual, physical power or strength, mental power, bio-electrical, Chi, the Power of Belief (not to be confused with Spiritual ... some of us are just stubborn), etc.


I think a full understanding of the physics behind the generation of power is essential, along with knowledge of various paths of motion, other than linear, through which one may accelerate the weapon, and how to engage more of the body's mass while striking, in order to maximize power at the point of impact. Lots more comes into play, angles of incidence, borrowed force, the nicety of awareness in where tradeoffs can be made and still maintain an EFFECTIVE force, which may not equate with MAXIMUM force, necessary to do the job. But wait, I stray from "Power".

Just do not be lulled into limiting yourself to the "physics" of Power ... which is back to the topic of the thread.

-Michael

 

[Ceicei]

Power = Mass Times Acceleration squared.

So you think power is the same as energy, as defined in physics, E = mc2 ?

Somehow, I think power is more channelled than raw energy. Maybe on one level they are the same, but I think on another level, power and energy aren't necessarily equivalent.

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

A whole can of worms indeed. I'd throw in my two bits here though I'm not a Kenpoist (could be someday... :uhyeah: ) But there were several things I recall from Parker Jr's seminar that (MAYBE) I failed to interpret correctly or (MAYBE) you were distracted by watching his demonstration instead of what he was saying :idunno: who knows and it don't really matter.

1) What is power? I liked Golden Dragon's answer thus far.
2) Is it physical, psychological, mental, or a combination? A combo, combining the three to work together in harmony.
3) Is it more than "chi"? In some ways it is chi/ki strength from within. The Force!
4) When people say "do it with power", what does that mean? To me it means that you can hit/kick something and have little or no effect, or you can kick/hit something and actually show a result, or you can hit/kick something and totally destroy it. Doing it with power is doing it with enough force to achieve your desired result.
5) Can power be present with muscle tension or in a relaxed state? Either, but one generates more force than the other.
6) How can being "relaxed" generate more power? This is going to be my longest answer... and one where I'll (paraphrase) Parker Jr. from his seminar we attended. Parker demonstrated the effects of hitting with tension and hitting while relaxed. You recall that the (20 something yr. old volunteer) said that he felt the tension hit just on his pecs alone... but the "relaxed" hit he felt go totally through him. Parker Jr. used the analogy of automobiles to help articulate his point. A car traveling at 55mph is about to hit another car that is going 30 mph. The driver of the car (going 55) might hit the brakes and thus apply tension thus slowing down the momentum of the car and also reduce the force of impact. OR the driver can just simply continue without using any brake and hit the car at the speed he is travelling. Which will cause the more damage? Of course, the latter. Why? Because of momentum.
Thus, you throw a punch at whatever speed you choose but your muscles are relaxed all the way to just the moment before impact. All that force is still being generated and travelling without being slowed from tension of the muscles which is (of course) nothing more than a contraction and pulling back thus slowing you down thus reducing the "power" of your punch. Parker Jr. said that you tense up at the last possible second before hitting your target, more to protect your hand than to generate any force. Also being relaxed helps not wear you out in a prolonged altercation. Parker Sr. mentioned a bit about muscles and understanding how they work in Book 2 of his Infinite Insights.
7) Are there more than one type of power? If not, is power just one type, but handled differently? Yes, there is physical, mental and emotional power. How each are applied determines their strength (respectively). You can use your mental powers to talk, think your way out of a fight/altercation. Parker Jr. said that by talking your way out of a fight is being a lot better than one who beats down their opponent.
Emotional power is inner strength, inner will, being able to "be strong" in trying circumstances. Not "curling up into a fetal position" (inside) and facing the hurt, anger or whatever. Other words...dealing with it.
Physical power was just recently described by goldendragon.

The above was just my own opinions (except of course where I (loosely) paraphrased GM Parker (and agreed with goldendragon . Deal with it. :asian: :wink1:

 

[OC Kid]

I think that its plain. The faster you hit someone the harder it will be. I think the larger person (mass) who has more behind his strike kick ect and is extremely fast will hit harder than a equal sized enemy who is slower. I thik a larger sized personwho has the same speed and a smaller person will hit harder. thus Mass X Acceleration.

But of course their are other variables such as hip rotation, focus, timing , momentum moving fwd, Ki/ Chi ect. But in its purest form I still say its M X A squared.

hey I just got promoted again..Wow GoKyu

 

[Ceicei]

6) How can being "relaxed" generate more power? Parker demonstrated the effects of hitting with tension and hitting while relaxed. You recall that the (20 something yr. old volunteer) said that he felt the tension hit just on his pecs alone... but the "relaxed" hit he felt go totally through him. Parker Jr. used the analogy of automobiles to help articulate his point. A car traveling at 55mph is about to hit another car that is going 30 mph. The driver of the car (going 55) might hit the brakes and thus apply tension thus slowing down the momentum of the car and also reduce the force of impact. OR the driver can just simply continue without using any brake and hit the car at the speed he is travelling. Which will cause the more damage? Of course, the latter. Why? Because of momentum.

On one level I agree, but I think that there is more than just simply travelling without stopping that makes up part of the power. With the accident analogy, I believe Ed Parker Jr. was discussing "drag", or the difference between tensing up the whole way before contact (or even at the half way point before contact) and just continuing on. He was explaining a different type of power, the power via momentum. BUT that is not the only kind of power, so the analogy cannot necessarily be equally compared. That analogy doesn't address the tension at the last minute. What I mean here, is a person could just simply throw a punch with absolutely no tension at all, not even at impact (as in a car not braking at all). Would that be more destructive than a punch with total tension the entire time? Maybe, and maybe not. Throwing a punch without the tension at the last minute will only borrow power from momentum alone.

Moving on to a different kind of power that is more than just momentum: As GoldenDragon pointed out, the power is channelled when "upon impact with a block/strike you must have muscle tension to achieve maximum effect." Thus, with this second definition--not based on momentum alone--I think Ed Parker Jr.'s example of the whip fits better. The "whip crack" could conceivably be equivalent with the "tension" at impact point.

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

Hmm, isn't that what I just said??...
Anyway as this thread grows (and undoubtedly it will) you'll find a lot of individual definitions of Power and the variety of them.
There probably is no one right definition of Power. But it's good to see the various view-points and perhaps a bit from each and personal searching might help define it for you and anyone else. :asian:

 

[kenpoworks]

Accuracy accompanied by speed produce powerful results.:CTF:

 

[ob2c]

power is the ability to apply force to accomplish work. Add to what has already been discussed the effects of leveraging and useing body weight (as in grappling), proper angles of incidence or direction of applied force, targeting and accuracy..., this could get pretty complicated.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Interesting questions.

My tiny contribution: when I have seen a Tai Chi instructor box, and hit someone, his power is impressive. What is it that I admire? To me, the "power" is in a) the control he has over his body, b) his being relaxed and letting his good technique take him to where he wants to be, so it often looks effortless, but c) tensing before impact, rooting, giving that extra juice and "oomph!" that will go right through someone, which I believe is in part related to d) intent, and belief in yourself as you execute your technique, which allows some of these other physical/mechanical things to happen.

 

[Baoquan]

WARNING - GENERALLY POINTLESS AND POORLY EXPLAINED PHYSICS DRIVEL FOLLOWS. FEEL FREE TO IGNORE. :asian:

Generation of power is easy - delivery of power is hard. As others have pointed out, power (physically) can be described a mass x accel.(squared)...but what happens to that power when contact is made? is it squandered in heat, sound and ancillary movements, or is it delivered to and through the target?

Delivery of power (or 'work') is a factor of momentum.

Momentum is the mass of a body times its velocity. Forces of acceleration (like hitting the brakes in Ed Parker Jr's example) can change the velocity of an object and, in this example, decrease it's momentum. Mass (catastophic incidents aside) remains constant. So, generation of power is easy with more velocity, but delivery of power is easier with more mass (which is why, no matter how fast you hit, a bigger guy usually hits harder. Sad, but true).

However, some things are better at transferring momentum than others - for instance, a punch that is delivered through the target than a punch that is deliverd on it. This is Impulse - which is essentially change in momentum. You can generate more impulse by maintaining monentum by increasing velocity after the initial contact - ie. punching through the target. Example, an offensive lineman that hits the defensive line and stops running, or one that hits the line and keeps pumping his legs- which is gonna deliver more power?

Timing is a critical factor also, but the physics gets insane once we consider inelasticity of the bodies in question (people), the fact the people hitting other people isnt really a closed system, and the vector maths involved...

yeah as ob2c says...thsi could get pretty complicated.

So, finally, power is momentum delivered efficiently - and efficient delivery is obtained through timing and good technique....which someone else has probably said more succinctly and clearly while i've been typing this load of bollocks.

:uhyeah:

Cheers

Baoquan

 

[Baoquan]

Interesting questions.

My tiny contribution: when I have seen a Tai Chi instructor box, and hit someone, his power is impressive. What is it that I admire? To me, the "power" is in a) the control he has over his body, b) his being relaxed and letting his good technique take him to where he wants to be, so it often looks effortless, but c) tensing before impact, rooting, giving that extra juice and "oomph!" that will go right through someone, which I believe is in part related to d) intent, and belief in yourself as you execute your technique, which allows some of these other physical/mechanical things to happen.

Yup, Feisty Mouse did it....

 

[Michael Billings]

Timing is a critical factor also, but the physics gets insane once we consider inelasticity of the bodies in question (people), the fact the people hitting other people isnt really a closed system, and the vector maths involved...

... So, finally, power is momentum delivered efficiently - and efficient delivery is obtained through timing and good technique....which someone else has probably said more succinctly and clearly while i've been typing this load of bollocks.

Actually I like the "power is momentum delivered efficiently - and efficient delivery is obtained through timing and good technique." It is clear and succinct if you understand mass X velocity squared. And I am with you, elasticity, angles of incidence, borrowed force, etc. are all variables that you could calculate, but would be very difficult and are better learned through application.

-Michael