Defense against a sucker punch

[bushidomartialarts]

the best defense against a sucker punch is leaving the bar early.

seriously, it's not terribly difficult to keep people who might conceivably punch you out of arms reach. we end up in bad situations when we ignore our better judgment and that little voice in the back of our heads.

think about it. how many 'surprise attacks' have you experienced that were actually surprises when you thought about it later? it's amazing how much we can see coming when we pay attention.

 

[Jimi]

I agree that awareness is key in keeping from getting sucker punched. About 20 years ago in the DC Metro area some thugs were running around videoing their attacks on innocent people, much like what was mentioned earlier in this thread. A man with his arms full of groceries was approached by 3 maybe 4 kids no older than 18 or 19. He was quite aware of the possible threat and was trying to keep an eye on all of them, when one got his attention by swearing at him, another threw a clean sucker punch and knocked him out cold. The sick kids then urinated on him which brought him back around. This was shown on the news and many people realized, even trying to be aware may not be enough to keep the sucker punch from landing. Avoiding the sucker punch is even more difficult when you have to worry about it coming from more than one possible attacker. A true sucker punch comes before you persieve a threat, an attacker does not want to turn it into a game of who can react faster, they want to hit you before you know what happened. Once you say, lets train against sucker punches you have defused the true surprise, then you are working simple response drills to an already understood threat. I can not see, hear or smell a sucker punch coming, if some-one can, it's not a sucker punch.

 

[Henderson]

I can not see, hear or smell a sucker punch coming, if some-one can, it's not a sucker punch.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Hand Sword]

Yes, and that's why there is no real defense against it. You feel it before you can react.

 

[NYCRonin]

OK -finally - back here!
There is really no defense against a sucker punch...but it can sometimes be caught early before it lands fully, and does less damage...not at all like a full defence...but relaxation can minimize the damage.
For the vast majority - a sucker punch is only a sucker punch when it fully hits...take that from me, from experience.
Back in 2000, I caught a beauty!
From behind..in a bar...from an unknown that was much larger and younger than I. He came up and hooked off on me from behind, for totally unknown reasons (I am a NYC Corrections Officer...and he 'might' have been past clientele with an agenda...who knows).
He caught me just to the side and slightly behind my right orbital...and I went right down to the floor. I dont remember anything but blindness..but the bartender later told me that I hit the floor and bounced up like on a trampoline and told the (unseen) guy something so stupid to write:
"If your not my friend, I am gonna kill you"> As if a friend would do such a sneak attack! I dont remember the hit...only reactive blindness...and the 'bounce'. The bar tender told me that the attacker looked at me like he saw satan himself and ran out of the place.

The result was a cracked orbital - in 2 or 3 places....and a broken tooth root - and permanent nerve damage to my right upper lip. I can touch my right lip and feel it in my right eye. I looked like the elephant man for about 2 weeks after...hey, he got me - totally off guard. My mistake....and glad the damage was not worse.

In retrospect, I would guess that if somehow I had not bounced up - I would have received a lil stomping.

So, a true sucker punch will only be true when ya catch it...but whatever smidgen of movement I had...allowed me to survive this instance.

Perhaps this thread is better titled - "How to avoid catching a sucker punch" and as mentioned above - awareness is the key.

But, if you are always totally aware - you must restrict certain semi-normal circumstances. Sorta like - stay out of bars...dont drink in public....never let anyone you dont really know get too close, ever. Whenever in public - be semi-slightly-paranoid-on condition yellow/red.
Thats not easy to do ALL the time. Doing so will surely limit your experience in life, would it not?

Imagine me, I would never be able to get on a subway car to go home after work - at that time - there are too many close bodies! So, should I wait until 2 hours pass to go home in a much more deserted car....not attend a concert....or ever visit The Pub....because I will not feel 100 percent safe?

Thats not living in this city. And not a life I choose to live.

Yeah, that one caught me....and according to my friends at that place, at that time - that hitter is no longer a problem to anyone..by his own actions.

Awareness is key...but living life in condition red is very much being constantly paranoid....who wants to life like that?

You do your best..train your best..attempt to be ready for anything....maybe you will, maybe you wont. Most probably, you will.
But S**T happens!

Nobodys perfect.

Just be careful...to your best ability.

Some folks die by a lightning bolt or car wreck...despite how good they are at self protective skills and awareness.
Kust try your best...seems to work for the overwhelming majority of folks...even those that have zero training and go through life with their heads firmly implanted in their butts.

In closing - keep yer wits about you, good luck...and remember that preventing a defintive sucker punch is much more a matter of survival...than living in the red all the time and losing out on so much of life in a society of closeness - 'paranoia, deep destroyer' - as some rock group once sang.

Relaxed body will allow for better reactions..as will getting comfortable with being hit in training...IMO.

BTW - I still have the x-rays taken that night -- my lil private reminder - that S**T happens.

 

[Robert1234]

One of Kadochnikov's principles of survival is to foresee a dangerous situation and if it is perceived then avoid it. When the situation is unavoidable then act without fear or hesitation to terminate the problem. In this light the sucker punch can be anticipated by an experienced "street" person. However, if he puts himself in a situation and weakens his defenses by overindulging, etc. then his awareness is diminished.
An attack from behind, I feel, is better classified as an ambush. Therefore, the avoidance principle takes on a new meaning. Usually an ambush properply planned by an enemy is unavoidable as he picks the time and place and depends on deception for success.

 

[RachelK]

In this light the sucker punch can be anticipated by an experienced "street" person.

But I thought everyone agreed that a sucker punch is completely unanticipated...granted, an experienced person will presumably be more aware and avoid being sucker-punched more easily than an untrained person, but even so, isn't a "sucker punch" by definition, one which is not expected? Whether you're a drunken idiot or a hardened street thug or even an expert martialist, surprises do happen. I know that many will disagree and maybe it is possible to heighten your awareness, discretion, and avoidance skills to the point where you can never, ever be taken by surprise. But I have never met anyone who claims to be immune to surprise attacks, and even that assertion, in my opinion, would be quite dangerous and in fact increase the chance of being taken by surprise. After all, surprises are what happen when you do not expect them to, therefore, if you assert that you cannot be taken by surprise, it's actually easier to surprise you, since your mind does not accept the possibility.

OK, I know that's a downright silly, circular, argument, but I see this so often in discussion of martial arts, when people have questions about particular situations, the response is so often "just avoid those situations." Good advice, of course, but do prevention and preparation have to be mutually exclusive? Or should everyone who posts a question about a particular situation preface it with "...given that you were not aware enough to avoid Situation X, you cannot run away nor talk yourself out of it, how can you defend yourself in Situation X?" Can't we assume that martial artists know that awareness, avoidance, and discretion are critical to personal safety? And I don't agree with the poster who says it's not terribly difficult to keep people who might conceivably punch you out of arm's reach and that surprise attacks don't happen as often as is perceived. But I don't have any statistics to back this up, so let's say they don't happen too often. Even so, it only has to happen once to end a life! And sometimes people do sense the danger, and try to get away, call for help, even fight for their life, but they are killed anyway. Not just amateurs, even professionals are surprised, not just in military ambushes, but when ordinary people suddenly and unexpectedly turn violent, and I don't think it's always accurate to say that awareness would have saved them. That's one of the hard things about life, that good people who are highly trained with much experience are still taken from us unexpectedly. And when such people are killed, others say, "How could this happen to so-and-so, he was so careful, so aware, and with all his expertise, why didn't his skills save him?" I saw this response to the murder of one of the most esteemed of our instructors, and I don't understand it. I'm not a religious person, but I also know I'm not immortal, and I don't believe that it is possible for us to develop the capability to foresee and prevent death, all we can do is increase the odds and hope the universe will look kindly upon us in our most dire situations.

Even leaving aside violence from other people, danger, by its very nature, is so often unexpected:

Some folks die by a lightning bolt or car wreck...despite how good they are at self protective skills and awareness.

I guess the point of my rather long post is, why not prepare anyway, even if you're confident you can avoid such situations, there's no harm and maybe a lot of good in learning the most effective means of surviving extreme situations. I think the original poster's question is a good one, and resulted in many informative responses...including the suggestions about awareness, avoidance, and discretion.

An attack from behind, I feel, is better classified as an ambush. Therefore, the avoidance principle takes on a new meaning. Usually an ambush properply planned by an enemy is unavoidable as he picks the time and place and depends on deception for success.

Ambush, sucker punch, surprise attack...I think the original poster was asking how to handle such situations, not what to call them.

Best wishes,
Rachel

 

[Robert1234]

My understanding of a sucker punch is where the assailant does something to divert the attention of the "victim." Then he will be able to deliver a punch quickly because the victim has let down his guard somehow or maybe moved his hands and arms to protect the area of his body the assailant led the victim to believe would be the actual target. Or got the attention of the intended victim with some other means by a means of a third person. Then again fired off a punch onto the unsuspecting person.

So to identify the type of attack is important in order to address its means of defense and preparation for same. That is why I made the distinction. For example: the previous writer wrote, "Relaxed body will allow for better reactions..as will getting comfortable with being hit in training...IMO." Preparing your body to be relaxed even in violent situations is a matter of proper training. Many martial arts train with a sports-mindset. Conditioning for maximum strength, wind, timing, etc. Survival in the street is a different matter. There are no rules. Even the so-called contests without rules still don't allow eye gouges and groin attacks. Or the use of knives or guns, etc. But OK I will agree with your statement,"Ambush, sucker punch, surprise attack...I think the original poster was asking how to handle such situations, not what to call them." My definitions are different because preparing for an ambush focuses on awareness and avoidance unless it is a military ambush. Finding and engaging the enemy is the goal.

Training the body and mind to be relaxed is a matter of conditioning. Take the couch potatoe, she/he will probably tense up the most when violently confronted. So active training is necessary acting out violent confrontations to all parts of the body including eyes, throat, etc. This must be done in slow motion. The reflexes will remember these slow movements and when an unexpected force is pressed against the person the body will react accordingly instinctively. The result will be to lessen or completely avoid the vector of force.

If NYCRONIN hadn't fallen down it is possible he would have been injured more. One of the training methods in Kodochnikov's Russian Style is how to fall without injuring one's spine. Most Judo and Sambo practitioners end up with serious spinal problems. Why? They are practised as sports on mats. Full force falling causes these injuries. Falling techniques used for landing on cement and other hard surfaces are of a different nature. Again relaxing while falling is the key. The whole body must be relaxed and being unafraid of falling is essential. For example, if a much larger attacker throws a punch or knife your way you must not be there to receive the assault. Falling/rolling removes you from not only the point of impact but allows you to escape or reposition youself to terminate the attack.

Street persons, in my experience, are for the most part, able to anticipate "sucker-punches". Why? Because they practise for it. Prisoners have alot of time to practise and train together combining their knowledge and mistakes for future use. I didn't mean to imply that they are immune. No one is as has been pointed out. Police wear protective garments and carry lethal weapons hoping to "even the playing field." I classify police as street persons also. People who must live or operate on the street in dangerous areas all prepare for unpleasant encounters by various means.

So call it what you will but proper training is the only defense against any form of attack. No one gets out of this world alive so have fun!
Best regards from Ukraine.