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kill'em all & let GOD sort it out....
I realize we're all martial artists, but doesn't anyone use discussion anymore?
Let me address this a little differently. I generally carry a firearm. Including to church. And I know the places in the church that provide cover versus concealment. I've planned how I'd respond in the event of someone posing a threat to the congretation during Mass, up to and including lethal force.
I lived in a Catholic monastery for a few years after the first Gulf War. An amazingly large number of the monks were veterans, usually from the higher end of the training spectrum.
I can assure you that there wasn't one of them who would condone that answer.
They would rather die than resort to violence against another person ever again. The example and message of the many martyrs over the centuries, to them, is an example to emulate, not one to sacrifice for personal gain.
If a Church's message is peace and "turning the other cheek," and you enter that place with the willingness and intent to simply ignore that message, then frankly, you do not hold to that faith and do the community a disservice by remaining a member there.
As opposed to doing the community a service . . .
jks9199 used the word "mass," so I assume he's Catholic. In the Catholic faith, the Bishop is the ultimate authority over the parishes within the diocese.
Pretend you're in his shoes.
Now, go ask the Bishop if he wants you carry your weapon into his Church.
When he tells you "No," are you going to continue to do so? Against the direct, expressed wishes of the person who has both spiritual and physical authority over the community and building?
And he will tell you "No."
Will you continue to insist you're performing a service by disobeying your spiritual elder?
If a Church's message is peace and "turning the other cheek," and you enter that place with the willingness and intent to simply ignore that message, then frankly, you do not hold to that faith and do the community a disservice by remaining a member there.
I'm not required or urged by GOs to be armed where I attend church; I don't live in the jurisdiction that employs me. I have attended Mass with uniformed officers; should they secure their weapon before Mass starts?jks9199 is a LEO and in some jurisdictions LEO's are required to be armed, even when off duty, I can't speak for him but it may be a job requirement for him, is he supposed to stop going to mass or quit his job?
I don't ask anyone's permission to defend myself or my family, nor will I. The bishop may not be around to protect someone who needs it, and I wouldn't want to bother him with the spiritual matter of presiding at a funeral. I wouldn't say disobeying a spirtual elder is performing a service any more than I would say
We are all entitled to believe and worship as our heart dictates and our sensibilities allow, that's the only point that I was trying to make.
jks9199 is a LEO and in some jurisdictions LEO's are required to be armed, even when off duty, I can't speak for him but it may be a job requirement for him, is he supposed to stop going to mass or quit his job?
I don't ask anyone's permission to defend myself or my family, nor will I.
The bishop may not be around to protect someone who needs it,
and I wouldn't want to bother him with the spiritual matter of presiding at a funeral.
We are all entitled to believe and worship as our heart dictates and our sensibilities allow, that's the only point that I was trying to make.
If jks1999 carries a firearm into church, and no one knows except his family and God, then it's between him and God. Not him and what the church says, not him and his bishop, and not him, his bishop and anyone else posting here-it's between him and God.
In the Catholic church (and again I'm making an assumption based on jks1999's use of the work 'mass')
it is very much between him and his Bishop in several ways
The ecclesial office, headed by the Bishop, owns the property. If nothing else, it may well be an act of trespass.
Under canon law, to the extent that the Bishop deems his instruction to be a spiritual matter, it is the church member's duty to respond appropriately.
As a spiritual matter, Catholic theology does not allow for the faithful to merely ignore spiritual commands.
Now, in less formally codified religious structures, "between him and God" may well be true. Catholic theology however clearly makes the Bishop the arbiter of that relationship.
How incredibly appropriate for this thread.
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."
These words, roughly translated as "Kill them all. God will know his own" were attributed to the Legate of Pope Innocent III, Arnaud Amaury, also known as the "Butcher of Beziers". Charged with the task of eliminating the Albigensian herecy in Occitan in 1209, (SE France) he cornered a few hundred suspects in the good Catholic city of Beziers. When the city-folk wouldn't or couldn't surrender the accused, he is said to have uttered these noble and inspiring words, ordering the murder of every man, woman and child in the town... a total population estimated at 20,000. A huge number took refuge in the city's cathedral where they were burned alive. The rest were hunted down like vermin and their bodies were playfully dragged through the streets behind horses.
A great way to respect life in a holy place, eh? You got any other cute mottos? How about some good Nazi slogans? "Work will make you free". That was over the gate of Auschwitz, I believe.
Not if the bishop doesn't know he's carrying
Not necessarily true. if the Bishop has issued any sort of formal pronouncement, letter, or sermon on the topic, then he has been told.