Defending oneself (or others) in a holy place

[Carol]

Recently I heard of a community of faith that was crushed by the loss of its generally well-regarded young leader, who moved on to take a position in another state.The community is now looking for the right person to be its new leader. The search process has not been going all that well...and one of the last group discussions about the future of the community resulted in heated tempers and two people practically coming to blows.

So...a question I'd like to throw out to everyone, regardless of style or ability...

What if you were some place where a fight is breaking out...or about to break out. And, due to the circumstances...you really really do not want to hurt the people involved. Maybe you are at a house of worship of your own, or maybe you are at a family gathering that goes sour.

How would you approach defending yourself (or someone else) against someone that you really don't want to hurt?

 

[KempoGuy06]

Recently I heard of a community of faith that was crushed by the loss of its generally well-regarded young leader, who moved on to take a position in another state.The community is now looking for the right person to be its new leader. The search process has not been going all that well...and one of the last group discussions about the future of the community resulted in heated tempers and two people practically coming to blows.

So...a question I'd like to throw out to everyone, regardless of style or ability...

What if you were some place where a fight is breaking out...or about to break out. And, due to the circumstances...you really really do not want to hurt the people involved. Maybe you are at a house of worship of your own, or maybe you are at a family gathering that goes sour.

How would you approach defending yourself (or someone else) against someone that you really don't want to hurt?

very good topic.

That is a hard decision that would need to be made. There are ways to subdue someone with little or no physical harm ie: chokes, hold, etc...

If it came down to having to defend them and hurt them thats a decision or action I believe no one wants to ever have, but what its one of those things that is a double-edged sword. If by hurt one of the people keeps them from hashing it out and hurting more than each other than thats what I would do.

B

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

That's what I use judo and jujutsu for. Not everything requires an injurious or fatal response. Pull the guy to the floor and sit on him until he decides to calm down.

 

[elder999]

That's what I use judo and jujutsu for. Not everything requires an injurious or fatal response. Pull the guy to the floor and sit on him until he decides to calm down.

Beat me to it.

The example I use in class when we train for this is called (to my son's consternation) "Drunk Uncle John," that guy you really don't want to hurt, but might just have to try to subdue-and that's how we train it: an attempt to subdue, becuse, naturally, if anyone's going to get hurt, it shouldn't be you.

 

[Drac]

That's what I use judo and jujutsu for. Not everything requires an injurious or fatal response. Pull the guy to the floor and sit on him until he decides to calm down.

Beat me to it.

The example I use in class when we train for this is called (to my son's consternation) "Drunk Uncle John," that guy you really don't want to hurt, but might just have to try to subdue-and that's how we train it: an attempt to subdue, becuse, naturally, if anyone's going to get hurt, it shouldn't be you.

Great answers..Well said guys...

 

[jks9199]

Let me address this a little differently. I generally carry a firearm. Including to church. And I know the places in the church that provide cover versus concealment. I've planned how I'd respond in the event of someone posing a threat to the congretation during Mass, up to and including lethal force.

There have very simply been too many attacks in churches to consider them safe havens. And that's before we get into some of the places of worship that are likely to be targets, like Islamic mosques.

If two members of a congregation or other group are having such a heated discussion that it's about to come to blows -- my first step is to try to separate them, and move them outside the meeting area. Ideally peaceably (the stunt used by Patrick Swayze's character Dalton in Roadhouse is great; "let's go outside!" then don't follow as they leave) -- but if not, with force. Often, all it takes is grabbing an arm, and leadng one of the parties to the door.

One note: if it's come to violence, don't go halfway. I've known more people to get their noses broken or worse trying to break up a fight... If you're going in -- you're IN IT.

 

[Drac]

Let me address this a little differently. I generally carry a firearm. Including to church. And I know the places in the church that provide cover versus concealment. I've planned how I'd respond in the event of someone posing a threat to the congretation during Mass, up to and including lethal force.

There have very simply been too many attacks in churches to consider them safe havens. And that's before we get into some of the places of worship that are likely to be targets, like Islamic mosques.

I know a couple of coppers up here that do the same thing or the same reasons.

If two members of a congregation or other group are having such a heated discussion that it's about to come to blows -- my first step is to try to separate them, and move them outside the meeting area. Ideally peaceably (the stunt used by Patrick Swayze's character Dalton in Roadhouse is great; "let's go outside!" then don't follow as they leave) -- but if not, with force. Often, all it takes is grabbing an arm, and leadng one of the parties to the door.

One note: if it's come to violence, don't go halfway. I've known more people to get their noses broken or worse trying to break up a fight... If you're going in -- you're IN IT.

I've seen that happen many times to people trying to be the peacemaker..

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not being in that situation with all the other variables that can pop up around something like this I can honestly say I do not know.

I would like to believe that I would do my best to disengage if things were getting to heated to avoid it all together based on the given places this is happening.

Or I would like to believe that I would use taiji (the yields and blend thing) to avoid as much injury as possible and hopefully tire them out.

But to be honest I really do not know since I am not in that situation.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have been in situations like this before.

I personally use blending,body alignment,Chokes,takedown and holding type moves.

Any art that has holding technqiues are ideal in this situation.

Even a simple clinch and maybe a knee strike might be enough to end the confrontation. The less force the better but when it comes to self defense You got to do what you got to do.

 

[Nolerama]

Word-jitsu is the greatest defense (for me) in those situations... But like previous posters, if the situation became violent, I'd have to seek a dominant position.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I am sorry but if the need to defend myslef comes up I will do so in the most effective way I can under the circumstances. I really do not care where I am I will protect myslef and my family. If others do not like it they can be victums if they choose

 

[allenjp]

Double leg takedown, kesa gatame.

 

[Josh Oakley]

For me it's going to depend on who's involved. If it's two other congregants I'll usually enlist the aid of another person BEFORE the fight to diffuse the situation. If they're already fighting, I'll just let them duke it out, then offer them both martial arts lessons at the end.

If it's another congregant and ME, well, "A gentle answer turneth away wrath." If I can't diffuse the situation verbally (and let's be honest, that will be 99% of the time) then I'll get them into a situation where they can't move and have to think, then calm them down.



But if it's some random person coming into the Church with a weapon, and intentand I'm in a position to do something... one or both of us are already in a good place for a funeral anyway.



Honestly, this is speculative. I've never had to fight in church, nor have I ever had to break up a fight in church. The third situation HAS happened in the not-too-distant past, but never to me or my congregation. There's no way I can say for sure, and I hope to God I'm never in a position to have to make such a decision.

 

[grydth]

I am sorry but if the need to defend myslef comes up I will do so in the most effective way I can under the circumstances. I really do not care where I am I will protect myslef and my family. If others do not like it they can be victums if they choose

I have to agree... when others choose to disgrace a holy place by turning a 'religious' turf war into a fist fight, they won't get any extra slack or chances to hurt my family. I am not thinking this group, or the battling monks of Jerusalem in another recent thread, have much to offer in the spiritual guidance department.

 

[Deaf Smith]

What if you were some place where a fight is breaking out...or about to break out. And, due to the circumstances...you really really do not want to hurt the people involved. Maybe you are at a house of worship of your own, or maybe you are at a family gathering that goes sour.

How would you approach defending yourself (or someone else) against someone that you really don't want to hurt?

I'd give the same response. Of course I tend to behave myself in church and expect everyone to be that way, but I'd treat it no different. As for not wanting to hurt the other person, in or out of church I do not wish to hurt anyone. If I need to use force, I'll use it, but it's not something I seek out, inside or outside the church.

Deaf

 

[Rich Parsons]

Recently I heard of a community of faith that was crushed by the loss of its generally well-regarded young leader, who moved on to take a position in another state.The community is now looking for the right person to be its new leader. The search process has not been going all that well...and one of the last group discussions about the future of the community resulted in heated tempers and two people practically coming to blows.

So...a question I'd like to throw out to everyone, regardless of style or ability...

What if you were some place where a fight is breaking out...or about to break out. And, due to the circumstances...you really really do not want to hurt the people involved. Maybe you are at a house of worship of your own, or maybe you are at a family gathering that goes sour.

How would you approach defending yourself (or someone else) against someone that you really don't want to hurt?

How would I defend myself. This all depends upon the situation.

I know holds and locks have been mentioned. But if the hold requires pain to make it compliant then it may not work, as I have seen people on drugs and so angry they just do not feel the pain until they come down.

Yet, given that information I would do what I had to. If contact ot physical contact is required. I make it painful. There are ways to make it painful without breaking or permanently hurting them. This gets their attention. Once you have their attention, usually they no longer what to hurt someone else, but might one to hurt you. Even in reflex. So here I use control techniques to make sure they go where I want them to go, and convince them to not want to continue with there path.

I also verbally tell others to call for help if it is serious. Not hey someone call 911. I will say Joe, call 911 NOW! this gets one person broken from the crowd to move and get help. If I have someone to back me up I can also give directions there as well.


If it a situation for cover versus concelment as others have mentioned I try to protect myself first as if I am injured I have no chance to help others. But given that sometimes you might be the point person not by choice and if you can keep their attention it gives others the chance to get away or to safety. One (* only me *) is better than 10 or 20 being injured.

 

[Kacey]

If the situation has not yet come to violence, and I am involved, then I find sitting quietly with my head down and doing nothing is often effective (works great at school on 7th graders, too) - often rubbing my temples or pinching the bridge of my nose like I have a headache (at school, I mean - using TKD on the middle school students is rather heavily forbidden).

Should the situation appear likely to escalate past verbal, and I am the only other person there, I would leave if at all possible. If there are other people present, my reaction would be dependent on who, how many, who was involved, etc. I can't really cover enough possibilities to give good parameters.

The thing is - this is my reaction regardless of location.

 

[Carol]

What....the school won't let you do TKD on middle schoolers Kacey? What is this world coming to? :lol2:

 

[Kacey]

What....the school won't let you do TKD on middle schoolers Kacey? What is this world coming to? :lol2:

Yeah, I know... darned laws against corporal punishment... really sucks, doesn't it? :idunno:

 

[morph4me]

If I have to defend myself or others, it doesn't matter where I am. Location is only relevant inasmuch as it provides cover and concealment, limits movement, or offers weapons of opportunity.