Dead Soldier; Happy Mom
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mantis
Master Black Belt
i dont think she's doing anything that brings shame to the soldier.arnisador said:
if i am killed i would like people i leave behind to find out why i was killed, would you too?
she's only trying to find the truth behind the motive of this war.
i dont think she's questioning the death of her son in a battle for his country. i am not a citizen, but i would think all americans would be proud of giving their sons for their countries, but she's questioning the meaning of the battle, and if that battle is actually about america, and about what america stands for. that should make the soldier proud of his mother.
i think, given the rights americans were given pre-bush, it's the mother's right to at least acquire some explanations.
knowing her motive, and the soldier's motive i see they both are fighting on the same front.
mantis said:
I think that she is. She has an agenda and is using his death to further it. We can not say for certain he would have approved of this crusade by her.
It is not really about getting answers as it is in attacking the policies in place by this administration. And it may be about getting celebrity status.
I know that if I were killed in a bomb by Islamic extremists, I would not want my relatives using that to gain fame for themselves and push a pro- Christian, anti- Muslim message.
mantis
Master Black Belt
i dont mean no offense, but i think you got some facts mixed up.Don Roley said:
the crusades are lead by bush, killing the muslims in more than one country.
sheehan is against that crusade, and she'a against using the youth in this unfair war.
sheehan is trying to stop the war by using her son's death.
so what's the problem again?
mantis said:
The word Crusade is not a proper noun as I used it. Sheehan is waging a crusade.
I am glad to see somoene is admiting that she is using her sons death.
Now, how on earth can anyone say that her son would have approved of that with certainty?
I served in the military. I know that before I went in I got some flack from some relatives about it. I knew what signing the line entailed. It is a very big decision and affects many aspects of your life. I did not serve during a very good time IMO. But speaking as someone who has worn the uniform, I would not be happy with someone using my death as she has used her sons.
Now, using the "Enlist or shut up" argument already on the table, who here has served in the military and has that sort of insight into the mind of those that join and yet still wants to argue the case that using his death for her own ends is a good thing?
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Well, ought we not offer the woman the benefit of the doubt? What I mean here, is that it seems to me she also has a duty to herself to express her opinion.
This point was brought up loosely before, but Casey's service was his own choice, and I don't think that her protest in any way disrespects that service. But the result of that service was that he died following orders, and that was his duty.
It's the orders that she is questioning here. Should she not be free to do that? I mean, should the only people protesting the war be people who have not lost family members there? What about Iraqis? Should the mothers of the men in Saddam's army who have died due to this conflict be able to speak out against the insurgents there? May they be granted the moral authority to protest for peace? How about to demand Saddam's death?
I'd think so.
This point was brought up loosely before, but Casey's service was his own choice, and I don't think that her protest in any way disrespects that service. But the result of that service was that he died following orders, and that was his duty.
It's the orders that she is questioning here. Should she not be free to do that? I mean, should the only people protesting the war be people who have not lost family members there? What about Iraqis? Should the mothers of the men in Saddam's army who have died due to this conflict be able to speak out against the insurgents there? May they be granted the moral authority to protest for peace? How about to demand Saddam's death?
I'd think so.
Flatlander said:
Everyone has a right to question. The problem is the way she is using her son's death. Her name is now known to hundreds of millions of people and her cause is furthered by her son's death. Mantis even said, clearly, that she was using his death. The question is, where is the proof that he would have approved?
If one of your loved one's died and you were not absolutly certain that he/she would approve of your cause, would you use the tragedy of their death to push it?
For me, the answer would be no. And having worn the uniform of the United States, I doubt many who took the same oath I did would approve. There is enough doubt, and seemingly no proof he felt the same as she, to look on this as a case of someone disrespting the wishes of the dead for their own means and benefit.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
. . . And if Ms. Sheehan is defined as a crazed left wing, MoveOn.Org, Michael Moore, puppet, who is abusing the memory of her son to gain notoriaty, we don't have to consider the substance of her arguments.
Why is it that Casey, and 2,017 of his colleagues have died in Iraq, again? What are we doing there anyway?
Why is it that Casey, and 2,017 of his colleagues have died in Iraq, again? What are we doing there anyway?
Tgace
Grandmaster
The ladys a littile nutty...
"Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy Ā not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy."
"Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy Ā not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy."
Tgace said:
I don't see anything nutty about this message. I have supported every single point in the above on MT with our the administrations own words and other documents. Heck, Norman Podhoretz says as much and he's a founding member of PNAC. If you still doubt me, check out "Rebuilding Americas Defenses," by Paul Wolfowitz.
Yet, no media outlet is particularly forth coming with any of this information. Particularly about how was was apparently chosen over Saddam's exile. This last bit would make a new good topic...
upnorthkyosa
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Yes Don, I really do see your point. I guess the question I have here is where lies Cindy Sheehan's larger responsibility? To her son's supposed wishes or her own self actualization? I don't personally believe that she's speaking anything that she herself doesn't believe. And, I suppose that it could also be noted that more people know of Casey Sheehan's sacrifice now, than would have had she remained silent.
Tgace said:
This is nutty? Then wrap it in coconut and chocolate cuz I feel like a nut.
Is it nutty to question the powers that be? I don't think so. Further, the fact that she gave birth to that young man who so willingly sacrificed his life for lies and half-truths gives her the right to claim her very personal pain in a very public manner. The constitution guarantees her that right and her son died to protect her ability to do so. So, you would rather she usurp that and just sit down and shut up, right? Wouldn't it be nice if everyone would just sit down and shut up when the president is trying to overthrow oil-rich governments for his own gain??
So, you're telling me it's wrong to point to military catastrophes and call them wrong if any of our soldiers have died at all ... especially if you're a family member of a deceased soldier? a victim of a lie? Whether he went into battle believing that lie or not, he is still the victim of a lie. When we speak out against the lies we HONOR OUR DEAD WITH TRUTH - I'd rather be honored with truth than remembered with deception.
DngrRuss
Orange Belt
To quote myself from a previous thread on the subject: "Wow, so much to get snippy about, so little time... Questioning the administration regarding the death of Casey Sheehan, and any other soldier for that matter, is neither unAmerican, disrespectful, nor is it improper. When a soldier signs on the dotted line, he is putting his own life and safety on the line to defend our country from all threats. Yes, he has to follow the orders of the Comander in Chief, the will of the Congress, his commanding officers, etc. Only if the order is unjust or illegal does the soldier have the right and/or duty to not follow those orders. Noone is denying any of that. Noone is denying that Casey Sheehan did his duty and made the ultimate sacrifice for his country. The question here is, did his country squander that sacrifice? Comparisons have been made between the current war in Iraq and the Vietnam war. There is at least one very distinct difference: In Vietnam, there was always one answer to the question "why are we here?"- to stop the spread of communism and protect our country from the domino-effect. Whether you agree with that reasoning or not, whether you supported that war or not, at least you knew where the administration stood and what the facts (at least what we were being told) were. With the Iraq war, the story keeps changing to either fit a current political climate, or hide the fact that we have made a rather large-scale blunder. If we were going in to protect ourselves against WMD's, and none were found, I would want to know why my son sacrificed his life and noone was accountable in the administration. Then the story changes to Hussein=BinLaden. Then that proves not to be accurate. Again, why is my son dead, and noone in the administration accountable? Then the story is that this is the "war on terror" (sidenote: haven't we learned that when we declare a war on a noun- like drugs, poverty, illiteracy, terror, etc.- that it just doesn't work), but the terrorists weren't bombing Iraq until we destabilized it. Again, my son pays the ultimate sacrifice, and noone up the food chain is accountable? This administration has done very little other than to give stump speeches and redneck-rhetoric to rally the country behind it. I would also like some answers. I want the government to be accountable for it's actions. You tell me I'm threatened, by God, send in the Marines to kick ***. But if the threat is not exactly what you said it was, then proves not to be there at all, I want some answers. And I haven't lost a child (though a few of my students are over there). I would demand answers if I had. Does Ms. Sheehan deserve a private audience with the President? I don't think so. I agree that there are millions of prople with millions of different grievences with this government, so seeing each of them is unrealistic. Seeing Ms. Sheehan specifically would probably be political suicide for the President. Do I think that her questions deserve answers? Abso-friggin'-lutley. This idea that the President has no accountability is absurd. He works for ME. He works for Ms. Sheehan. He works for every American on this board. He may be the CEO, but we are the stockholders. How many executives of any business would survive the ax if they were this inconsistent and, imho, incompetent? If I were the CEO of a company and one of my executives gives me information that causes me to take action that puts the company and myself in jeopardy, and this information proves to be false, I would fire his a** and do what I can to fix the problem. Noone in this administration has paid any price for the actions of this country- though many soldiers have. I have stated on other threads that I do not support a pull-out of Iraq. I want to be a good American and a good citizen of the world. My country screwed up this situation, and my country needs to fix it. I want my administration, my government, and my soldiers to be accountable. I want to see the best result from this debaucle as possible. I don't think I'm gonna get it as long as this administration is in power, changing stories, not accounting for thier actions, and not taking the bull by the horns and fixing the situation. I as an American am embarrassed by what my government has made me look like to the rest of the world. I am outraged that they are not doing everything they can to fix the situation and firing those who caused it. It continues to make us all look like a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks that shoot first, then don't even bother to ask questions. All Ms. Sheehan wants is accountability. I think she deserves it, as do we all. Brave soldiers are willing to sacrifice thier lives for us. I for one do not want those sacrifices to be wasted in my name, by an administration that can't seem to get it's story straight, and is allied by a movement that throws out labels like "unAmerican, traitor", and the ever popular "liberal" for those who wants answers and accountability." And Don- You have stated that Ms. Sheehan has been disrespecting her son because he "probably" wouldn't have agreed with her views. Your point is falacious at best. You have no idea what he would have thought or not. My opinion is that he "probably" would have agreed with her decisions and actions in his name, since his most influencial years were molded by his mother, not his drill instructor. I also could be very wrong, that is why I would never dare to assume or to know or make "probable" the thoughts of a dead man whom I have never met. For God's sake people- she lost her son. Just because you think that her politics are wrong does not make her any less a greiving mother. And, if it were me, and I had died for an unjust cause, by God I would hope that my family would use my name, likeness, or any other rememberence of me to help bring an unjust action to a close. My 2 cents.
DngrRuss said:
Ah, but Ms Sheehan has presumed to tell the thoughts of her dead son. Or at least give that as an excuse for why she sought the limelight like she did.
Your reasoning that her son probably would have felt like her due to his raising is quite a bit of a stretch. Have you never heard of parents and children disagreeing? Have you never heard of parents using their children and abusing them? Have you always felt the same political views of your parents?
Well, I can tell that you have never served in the military by what you write. I have. The decision is the biggest one I ever made in my life. It is a more important choice than getting married. You can't get killed in most marriages or be sent around the world at someone else's order. You do not go into that without a lot of thought and soul searching about what it means for you and those you know. You know going in that you may not have all the answers. You know that there have been suicide missions and that you may be called upon to die for some purpose that may never be revealed in your lifetime. If you can't live with that, there is no draft to force you to serve.
Sheehan's son signed the dotted line knowing all this. Having been in that situation, it is hard for me to beleive that he would approve of what his mother is using the tragedy of his death for her own means.
All during this debate, no one has been able to come forward with anything that shows that he would feel the same way as her. There are no letters by him complaning about the war I have heard of. The people around him at the end as well as the rest of his family do not seem to be flocking to her side to say he would have wanted his name to be used in this manner.
So there seems to be a great deal of probability that he would not have approved, and that would stop me from doing what she has done.
I asked a while back if anyone would like one of their relatives to use their name after they died to promote a cause they did not believe in. No one has said they would. I do not grudge Sheehan her right to protest, but I have the right to say that using her dead son's name for this fame is vile.
No one can show proof that he would have approved her actions. It looks very much to be the opposite.
No one has said they would like their name used for a cause they don't believe in like his has.
In fact, I look at this thread and I see a disturbing sentiment. Those that are on her side would not like their own name used in a cause they do not believe in, but their arguments can be boiled down to "the anti-war cause is too important to take into account the considerations of the dead and how their name is used."
I see people taking chances to launch rabid attacks against the president and decry the war, but no one willing to think about what this dead soldier really would have wanted. No one would want their name used for a cause they don't support like this, but no one seems willing to say that this is wrong because it might damage their argument against the war.
There are other threads about the war. This thread is supposed to be about how a mother has used her dead son's name to gain fame for herself. I have left my feelings about the war outside and tried to think about how I would feel if I were used as it looks like this guy was used. But no one defending Ms Sheehan seems to feel anything about what her child would have wanted- attacking the war is far too important to do so it would seem.
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Don ...
Casey is Dead. Cindy is not. I understand you don't approve of her tactics. For the sake of argument, I'll conceed. Ms. Sheehan is wrong. She shouldn't be doing this. It's disgraceful.
But can we address the substance of her argument.
What the hell are 161,000 United States Soldiers doing in Iraq?
Casey is Dead. Cindy is not. I understand you don't approve of her tactics. For the sake of argument, I'll conceed. Ms. Sheehan is wrong. She shouldn't be doing this. It's disgraceful.
But can we address the substance of her argument.
What the hell are 161,000 United States Soldiers doing in Iraq?
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