Dead Soldier; Happy Mom

[michaeledward]

Congress indeed made the wrong choice. Each and every Representative and Senator that voted to give away their constitution responsibility deserves to be voted out of office.

The vote to give the President authorization to use force is Unconstitution if it leads to war. This is not the first time.

The founders gave Congress the responsibility of declaring war because they had to go back to the local districts and answer to those whose family members would die in the war.

As Congress gave that responsibility away, each citizen should petition the President on the results of war. Ms. Sheehan certainly has earned the right.

In my opinion, those who question her motives and actions, unless they have suffered a similar loss, would do best to keep their opinions private.

She has earned the right to cry from every mountain top.

If you disagree .... enlist. Put up or Shut up.

 

[Don Roley]

In my opinion, those who question her motives and actions, unless they have suffered a similar loss, would do best to keep their opinions private.

She has earned the right to cry from every mountain top.

If you disagree .... enlist. Put up or Shut up.

Nice way of shutting down debate when you can't win it by logic and facts.

I enlisted, knowing that I may go to a war I did not choose or understand. I got out without harm. Her son made the same choice I did. When I say I would not want someone using my death to puch their own agenda, I know what I am talking about.

Your other points really do not make any sense. Giving the president the authorization to use force is somehow different from letting him wage war? I do not follow how you can feel that way.

And I will not shut up, and I do not expect anyone else such as you to either.

 

[michaeledward]

Nice way of shutting down debate when you can't win it by logic and facts.

I enlisted, knowing that I may go to a war I did not choose or understand. I got out without harm. Her son made the same choice I did. When I say I would not want someone using my death to puch their own agenda, I know what I am talking about.

Your other points really do not make any sense. Giving the president the authorization to use force is somehow different from letting him wage war? I do not follow how you can feel that way.

And I will not shut up, and I do not expect anyone else such as you to either.

Giving the President the authorization to use force is very much different than declaring war. The United States Constitution says (Article I - Section 8) The Congress shall have the power .... (Clause11) to declare war. If you enlisted, you should be familiar with this document.

I welcome any discussion on facts and logic concerning the legitimacy of the current action in Iraq.

But attacking Ms. Sheehan personally because you believe anything about her (seeking celebrity) or her son (he wouldn't have wanted her to protest the war) is shameful and disrespectful to the service and sacrifice of Casey.

By the way ... why did Casey die? What the hell was he doing in Iraq anyhow .... I mean, I know he was following orders .... but why were we there again? How's that goin?

 

[Don Roley]

But attacking Ms. Sheehan personally because you believe anything about her (seeking celebrity) or her son (he wouldn't have wanted her to protest the war) is shameful and disrespectful to the service and sacrifice of Casey.

Isn't her use of Casey disrespectfull to his service and sacrifice?

You said people who had not enlisted and disagreed with her should shut up. Well, should everyone who is not in the military perhaps shut up about how the military is used? People are not forcecd to join. Should we not respect their decision? They know what they are getting into, know they may be sent to war on the orders of politicians.

It is not Ms Sheehan's choice to determine what her son could and should not have done. It was his choice. It is the choice of everyone when they sign the line on the enlistment form. To say that people that disagree with your stance should shut up and join the military beggers the fact that people in the military have made a decision and you are not respecting their ability to make that choice for themselves.

 

[Tgace]

Funny to hear "enlist or shut up" from some folks around here. If I had used that line a while back all hell would have broken loose.

But OK...enlist or shut up. Works for me. I did my time.....

 

[michaeledward]

Forgive me if the context of my 'enlist or be quiet' comment is complex and difficult to understand. I will try and make it more clear.

I believe there are two sperate topics at issue in this thread. I believe they should be viewed and discussed sperately. And I have probably been guilty of overlapping my comments between these two topics without clarity in this thread.

Topic A - The war is wrong, unconstitutional, too expensive and needs to be stopped.

Topic B - Ms. Sheehan's demand for accounting on her son's death.

As mentioned, on Topic A, I will discuss with logic and fact, any time.

The 'Put up or Shut up' comment is directed to those who have not experienced any sacrifice in this war, denigrating Ms. Sheehan's actions. I do not know what it is like to lose a son, daughter, wife, father in this war. But there are two thousand families out there that do. And fifteen thousand whose loved ones that have been wounded.

It is just not our place to tell these people how they can honor their family members. No one should be able to do that.

We all can petition our elected officials; in support of, or opposition to the military action.

But putting down this woman (Cindy Who?), accusing her of anything, is just shameful.

Standing up for what you believe is wrong is something we valued in this country. It may be a strained analogy, but isn't Ms. Rosa Parks going to lie in State today and tomorrow? She sat down, and refused to get up. Is that all that different? (Rosa Who? Tom)

 

[Don Roley]

The 'Put up or Shut up' comment is directed to those who have not experienced any sacrifice in this war, denigrating Ms. Sheehan's actions.

Snip

It is just not our place to tell these people how they can honor their family members. No one should be able to do that.

Ms Sheehan did not fight in a war. Her son did. If you were killed, would you want someone using your death to promote a cause you did not beleive in? I do not think Sheehan is using this to honor her son's memory. She has a goal, and she is using her son's death in a way that if it were me would not please me.

As a general rule, I dislike people that say that we do not have a right to comment about something on an internet chat board. I can easily use that to say that unless you have been in the military, you should not be talking about how the military is used.

Again, the thing is that her son made a decision and knew what he was getting into. She may not agree with that decision, but to use her son's death is not honorable and not what I would want happen to me in the same circumstances.

And I do not think you or anyone else can tell us what we can or can not talk about.

 

[michaeledward]

This is from a Newsweek article .... and the husband of another Gold Star Mother.

Edward (Augie) Schroeder, a Boy Scout turned Marine, was killed along with 13 other soldiers on their fifth trip into Al Hadithah, Iraq, to clean out insurgents. Their fifth trip. "When you do something over and over again expecting a different result," Augie's grieving father, Paul, told me, "that is the definition of insanity." As the death toll of American soldiers in Iraq reached 2,000 last week, Paul Schroeder concluded that the military had not sent enough troops to Iraq to do the job properly and that the president was incompetent: "My son's life was thrown away, his death was a waste."

And this from the Gold Star Mother.

"I think it's more patriotic to speak up," Rosemary says. "If the emperor has no clothes, or the president has no plan—then you have to speak out. Otherwise, you're putting all these lives in danger for no good cause."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9865068/site/newsweek/

 

[Tgace]

To compound things...isnt she saying things like "useless death", "meaningless", "died for no reason" etc. Those are the things my soldier spirit would come back to haunt my relatives for. Doing my duty as a soldier would have been meaning enough.

 

[Tgace]

BTW. Since when did loosing a loved one make anybody more of an "authority" on ANY topic? There is this trend in the US...loose a loved one to a gun and you are now an expert on gun control. Loose one in a war and your opinions on strategy and foriegn policy now carry some weight. Loose one to a drunk driver and anything you say about DWI laws and the courts gets attention....regardless of your education, experience or personal connection to any of the topics. While I can respect a persons grief and feel sorry for their loss, they are no more educated, knowledgeable or an authority on any topic. Its the media and their efforts to make a story out of peoples loss that propagate this phenomena IMO.

 

[michaeledward]

It makes said person an 'authority' on the sacrifice.

The President continues to call for sacrifice for the stuggle in Iraq. I am making no sacrifice, except for the financial disaster fight a war on credit will create. Our children will be stuck paying for this excursion.

In light of the recent body count passing 2,000, many are saying the 'sacrifice' is worth it. Many who have, like me, not made any sacrifice. How nice of them to tell Ms. Sheehan the price she paid was appropriate.

Ms. Sheehan speaks with the authority of having made a sacrifice.

By the way ... why are US Soldiers in Iraq again?

 

[shesulsa]

Ms Sheehan did not fight in a war. Her son did. If you were killed, would you want someone using your death to promote a cause you did not beleive in? I do not think Sheehan is using this to honor her son's memory. She has a goal, and she is using her son's death in a way that if it were me would not please me.

What if you were fooled into believing that you fought a war for a certain cause but it was really for another? A cause that was not revealed to you until you entered the spirit world?

If this war continues on questionable grounds, is it dishonorable to shut up and say nothing? is it dishonorable to not fight against the needless future loss of lives?

Is it not POSSIBLE that her son can now understand her motivations to preserve life? Is it POSSIBLE?

Sure it is. And now he's dead, he is likely far more knowledgeable and compassionate than any of us can ever dream to be.

LONG LIVE THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE.

 

[Tgace]

He didnt enlist to fight in a specific war. He enlisted to follow the orders of those appointed above him. It called duty and is part and parcel of being a soldier. Especially a volunteer and not a draftee. Plenty of soldiers have disagreed with the wars they fought in but they went and fought anyway, duty is what gives the soldier honor more than any "cause". They fight because their fellow countrymen and their friends are there moreso than any soundbyte, speech or cause. If Ms. Sheehan thinks the war is meaningless thats her prerogative. I just dont think she has a grasp on what her son thought was "meaningful".

 

[Tgace]

http://www.slate.com/id/2124500/

Here is an unambivalent statement: "The moral authority of parents who bury children killed in Iraq is absolute."

And, now, here's another:

"Am I emotional? Yes, my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel. Am I stupid? No, I know full well that my son, my family, this nation and this world were betrayed by George Bush who was influenced by the neo-con PNAC agendas after 9/11. We were told that we were attacked on 9/11 because the terrorists hate our freedoms and democracy … not for the real reason, because the Arab Muslims who attacked us hate our middle-eastern foreign policy."

The first statement comes from Maureen Dowd, in her New York Times column of Aug. 10. The second statement comes from Cindy Sheehan, whose son Casey was killed in Iraq last year. It was sent to the editors of ABC's Nightline on March 15. In her article, Dowd was arguing that Sheehan's moral authority was absolute.

I am at a complete loss to see how these two positions can be made compatible. Sheehan has obviously taken a short course in the Michael Moore/Ramsey Clark school of Iraq analysis and has not succeeded in making it one atom more elegant or persuasive. I dare say that her "moral authority" to do this is indeed absolute, if we agree for a moment on the weird idea that moral authority is required to adopt overtly political positions, but then so is my "moral" right to say that she is spouting sinister piffle. Suppose I had lost a child in this war. Would any of my critics say that this gave me any extra authority? I certainly would not ask or expect them to do so. Why, then, should anyone grant them such a privilege?

Finally, I think one must deny to anyone the right to ventriloquize the dead. Casey Sheehan joined up as a responsible adult volunteer. Are we so sure that he would have wanted to see his mother acquiring "a knack for P.R." and announcing that he was killed in a war for a Jewish cabal? (a claim that has brought David Duke flying to Ms. Sheehan's side.) This is just as objectionable, on logical as well as moral grounds, as the old pro-war argument that the dead "must not have died in vain." I distrust anyone who claims to speak for the fallen, and I distrust even more the hysterical noncombatants who exploit the grief of those who have to bury them.

 

[michaeledward]

Tom, I don't necessarily agree with Ms. Dodd's assessment, athough, I do believe it is pointed in the correct direction, but perhaps a bit overreaching.

And perhaps I am drilling down to far in claiming that Ms. Sheehan has the right to talk about 'sacrifice' with more authority than I, or those of us who have not lost a son, daughter, brother or sister in Iraq.

I am not claiming her loss grants her more authority to discuss the motivations for the war..... but the cost.


It is convienent that the invasion of Iraq lines up so precisely with what the Project for a New American Century called for ten years ago, isn't it? Or is that, unfortunate.

Why are US Soldiers dying in Iraq, again?

 

[Don Roley]

What if you were fooled into believing that you fought a war for a certain cause but it was really for another?

That is still being debated. And it is not really the subject of this thread.

The subject is about how Sheehan is now smiling happily and basking in celebrity status while using her sons death to promote a cause I doubt he would approve of.

If you were killed, would you like a relative using you like that?

 

[michaeledward]

The subject is about how Sheehan is now smiling happily and basking in celebrity status while using her sons death to promote a cause I doubt he would approve of.

Basking in celebrity?

As I posted earlier, the reason she is laughing, is she had the random thought that the whole world could see her underwear.

She was getting arrested when that photo was taken. A courageous act of civil disobedience.

You don't think there is anything absurd in a little old lady getting busted and carried away by four or five Police Officers? Regardless of the issue, it's just absurd. But, just for review .... I think Betty was probably smiling too

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=215427&postcount=56


Basking in celebrity, indeed.

 

[Don Roley]

As I posted earlier, the reason she is laughing, is she had the random thought that the whole world could see her underwear.

So she says now.

I am free, like others, to believe otherwise. I never heard of her before this and her name would not be known to millions had her son not died.

That is a fact we can agree on, yes?

I have seen parents use their kids before. I can believe that Sheehan is doing the same. It seems the rest of the family feels close to what I feel based on stories that they are giving her the cold shoulder.

 

[michaeledward]

So she says now.

I am free, like others, to believe otherwise. I never heard of her before this and her name would not be known to millions had her son not died.

That is a fact we can agree on, yes?

I have seen parents use their kids before. I can believe that Sheehan is doing the same. It seems the rest of the family feels close to what I feel based on stories that they are giving her the cold shoulder.

Here is a link to an unfriendly source that reports Ms. Sheehan's statement on September 28, 2005 ... two days after her arrest.

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/28/sheehansmile/

Other points we can agree upon ... or agree to disagree.

 

[arnisador]

The subject is about how Sheehan is now smiling happily and basking in celebrity status while using her sons death to promote a cause I doubt he would approve of.

If you were killed, would you like a relative using you like that?

I really don't think we know how he feels about his death. Maybe he regretted joining the service and would approve of what she has said; maybe he'd embarrassed by what she has said. I don't see how we can know either way.