dangers of the insane.

[angrywhitepajamas]

I don't know how it is with the rest of the country, but here in my local area of california those people whom are the most dangerous are either gangs (usually stay with in certain areas), or those people whom can be classified as the 5150 or clinically insane(can be caused by chemical dependency). At least with the gangsta there is a known motivation, and they can be scared off. On the other hand the insane are usually innured to pain, are stonger, and are more unpredictable than your average human being. So how does one train to defend one's self from someone who does not care about pain and will continue attacking with the ferocity of a stuck mother sow as well as the strength and fortitude of an angry bear??

I only know about this simply because I know and train with psychiatric workers as well as cops. Their Strategy seems to involve sheer weight of numbers to overwhelm and exhause the individual(s?) in question. How would you guys deal with people and or a situation such as this?

 

[Touch Of Death]

when dealing with a crazy person(or drug crazed person) and you are by yourself it is a good time to make a descision of what level of damage you are allowed to legaly inflict. Make it quick because as your life is in danger you are going to need a plan.
If your willing to do whatever it takes then you need to:

1. develop a Knockout shot off the back hand
2. Target his base.
3 employ leg breaking or pelvis breaking kicks
4 be able to work any technique into a carotid artery choke(if this is employed properly it can be held indefinatly without fear of causing death)

If you are just plain not alowed to inflict any damage:


1. Be proficient in a grappling art
2. There is no two if you cant hold this guy revert to the previous rules and save your life. It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Touch'O'Death was right on target with his reply. Where I work we fall into the second category (not allowed to inflict damage) and the usual procedure is the "pile on and outlast". My primary art (Kenpo) does not emphasise grappling, so I have had to extract them, do extra training on them, and augment them with techniques from other arts, primarily Chin-na and Catch Wrestling. I've found that while most institutions and departments are quick to issue rulings on what may not be done, they tend to be woefully inadequate when it comes to supplying training in techniques for effectively dealing with the situation, IMHO.:soapbox:

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh

 

[MartialArtist]

Well, when fighting someone like that, you have to really compare the two people. People on heroin and stuff won't be deterred by pain and stop like normal people will, but still have to follow the laws of physiology. A groin kick won't be the most effective move (although a groin kick can kill) but a disabling move will. No matter how much pain they don't feel, a broken knee won't do them much good. Certain submission moves won't work... The submission moves that are intended to really break something when the person puts all his effort into it will. Same with choking.

Difference with psychiatric patients is that the people who subdue them aren't supposed to hurt them really but to stop them. If you meet an individual on the street who feels no pain, then time to fight even dirtier yet SMARTER than usual.

 

[Touch Of Death]

actualy a blood choke works on anybody. It may me harder to put it on but it will work.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
actualy a blood choke works on anybody. It may me harder to put it on but it will work.

I said chokes work, as well as the submission moves that are considered cheap or low.

Just because you can't feel any pain doesn't mean you don't have to breathe, or when you break something, you can move it.

 

[redfang]

Where I work we aren't allowed to hurt out clients or residents. All of the staff is trained in a system called PCI. It involves dealing with various levels of dealing with disturbed persons. Most of it is deescalation prior to having to intervene physically with a patient. The other quarter is non-violent physical restraint. Most of these are done with more than one person. A few are solo. A solo restraint when you are unable to harm the person is difficult if the person you are trying the restrain is the same size as you or larger. When you can't safely restrain and you are alone, then you need to defend yourself and try to remove yourself to a safe area. Most disturbed persons are not very disciplined when they attack. Using pure defensive techniques (PCI teaches a number of them.) it is usually fairly easy to keep from being harmed until you can get help or get away. Another option is non - physical intervention. Just because someone is schizophrenic or sociopathic or whatever doesn't mean that you can't talk to them without effect. The technique of blending helps one realize what is motivating the disturbed individual and can give you some idea as to how to go about reducing their level of aggresion.

 

[Wmarden]

I used to work with children, de-escalation is the key. But sometimes you just have to use superior numbers. There are specific holds that work well when you are much larger than the patient or client. But what I found is speed and agressiveness(targeted) is important in getting those little kids in holds. You have to be fast and decisive. Being wishy washy ain't going to cut it.

I remember one girl who was as I like to describe it, bat-**** crazy. One night we put her in so many holds we lost track and you had to document every hold or use of force. We had to escort down a hallway and we had to take her to the floor about 3-4 times. That was also the night she tried to pee on me when we had her held down in the quite room. And those damn doctors were really reluctant to use chemical restraints. That night was perhaps the worst night I had there.

They had a particular training system, so they could say we were certified. But that was mostly just to cover their hindquarters. I think they switched to the same system as the local DYS(juvy corrections) shortly after I left. But our training was hardly adequate. I think I learned more in my first jujitsu class.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by redfang
Where I work we aren't allowed to hurt out clients or residents. All of the staff is trained in a system called PCI. It involves dealing with various levels of dealing with disturbed persons. Most of it is deescalation prior to having to intervene physically with a patient. The other quarter is non-violent physical restraint. Most of these are done with more than one person. A few are solo. A solo restraint when you are unable to harm the person is difficult if the person you are trying the restrain is the same size as you or larger. When you can't safely restrain and you are alone, then you need to defend yourself and try to remove yourself to a safe area. Most disturbed persons are not very disciplined when they attack. Using pure defensive techniques (PCI teaches a number of them.) it is usually fairly easy to keep from being harmed until you can get help or get away. Another option is non - physical intervention. Just because someone is schizophrenic or sociopathic or whatever doesn't mean that you can't talk to them without effect. The technique of blending helps one realize what is motivating the disturbed individual and can give you some idea as to how to go about reducing their level of aggresion.

Interesting.

Where do you work? I used to volunteer at a hospital and the rule of thumb with subduing patients was also not to hurt them.

 

[Cthulhu]

In Florida, we can just call 911 have 'Baker Act' them. If at all possible, let the police handle it.

Cthulhu

 

[Abbax8]

I have worked with MR/DD dual diagnosed patients for over 25 years. Prevention of an incident is best. Deescalation is the next best move, talking is better than fighting. If it gets physical, numbers are good if everyone knows what to do, I've been hurt more often by people trying to help who don't know what to do. In solo restraints, you must get into the safety zone, that is behind the person. Here you are safer from attack, although you must be aware of head butts, an the occasional mule kick. A take down to get them face down, or to put them face first into a corner works best. This assumes your trying not to hurt them. A basket hold from behind works good, you grasp their left armwith your right and their right with your left, from behind. Essentially their arms are crossed in front of them. You can take them to the ground with this hold and sit on their back for control, maintain upward force on arms. You must be careful not to asphyxiate the patient. There is much , much more to add. But in the final analysis, your always better to not get physical if possible, especially when your by yourself. Talk until help arrives, or they cool down. Knowledge of the patient is a big help, but on the street this is unlikely.

Peace
Dennis

 

[sweeper]

be able to work any technique into a carotid artery choke(if this is employed properly it can be held indefinatly without fear of causing death)

How do you do that? If you cut off blood flow to the brain and keep it off they will die no matter what right? Do you mean like reduce preasure once they stop strugaling or something?

As to the starting question of encountering a druged up individual or clinically insane person (or both) on the street, I would say in genneral it would be easyer to avoid the situation all together, I think in genneral though someone clinicly insane maybe be less stable and much less predictable than someone in a "normal" state of mind, they also probably aren't looking for trouble and probably won't persue you if you don't present some sort of a threat.. Even someone on a drug like PCP isn't nessisaraly aggressive (although an aggressive person on PCP wouldn't be a good thing to encounter) but in genneral react to precieved situations.

If you are alone and sudenly confronted I would syggest looking for the easiest way out.. probably running. If you are with someone else than make sure they either run or they know how to fight as a team.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Take a choking class. a single sided blood choke will not cause death. Most deaths occur because the air was cut off. The body can handle it. I wouldn't hold the choke any longer than I had to but as long as you don't bruise the vein to the point of stroke causing blood clots. Death will not occur. personaly I feel I would hold the guy in a position that allwed for blood flow but with the slightest pressure re-establish unconciousness. Besides your only holding the gur for the minute or so it takes to get help to the individual. why hold a choke if you can seek cover after his initial unconciosness?

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas
or clinically insane

Just as a note "insane" is a legal term that refers to weather someone can be held responsible for their actions, not a medical or psychological one.

 

[sweeper]

ok ToD that clears things up for me, thanks

 

[A.R.K.]

Very dangerous situation. Unfortunately I have been in/witnessed many. My personal worst was what we refer to as a signal 20. He was a mentally disturbed inmate on pschotropic medication, only a nurse accidentally gave him the wrong medication. He was a W/M, approx 30 yrs of age, 5'1 and perhaps 120 lbs.

He tried to kill himself by taking a header of the bunk into the bars. We were forced to intervene in order to protect him from himself. We entered the cell in a six man team and attempted to four point him to the bunk to prevent further self harm. Since he was not attacking us or attempting to cause harm to us we were compelled to use submission type holds and sheer weight to contain his actions. Strikes were not warranted in this particular situation, at that particular time.

To make a long story short, four of us took a limb each while the other two tried to hold him down on the bunk. The two holding his upper body down, or rather trying to were easily 280 lbs each and not fat. This individual broke free numerous times and literally threw us around the cell. Stikes to major muscle groups were then employed to cause muscular disfunction. He only fought harder. After twenty minutes we finally completed the four point. He continued to fight the restraints for six hours till he finally broke one of the cuffs restraining one of his hands.

In such a senerio, the individual is a harm to themselves but not immediately to others. We are prohibited from techniques such as chokes and damaging joints for obvious reasons in these types of situations.

I have witnessed six Deputies trying to restrain a very large signal 20 with great difficulty. Repeated strikes only produced laughter from the individual.

I have seen individuals take a full burst of pepper spray and wipe it off with a grin and yell 'come in and get me'. etc etc.

If limited to non damaging/non lethal techniques [including chokes etc] then a single individual may well have great difficulty against an individual that feels little or no pain and has greater than normal strength. But then, if it is a one-on-one situation, an Officer could well justify using techniques, even lethal that could successfully conclude this senerio.

Basically if you can't breath, see or stand...you can't fight. At least not very well, very long. Hope no one ever finds themself in a situation such as any of these.

:asian:

 

[redfang]

Martial Artist,
I'm at a residential tx facility near Cleveland where we serve an adolescent population with diagnosises ranging from conduct disorders and substance abuse, to schizophrenia and severe personality disorders.

Martial arts play a big role in my philosophy for dealing with my clients BEFORE I have to physically intervene. When they are escalating, I often try blending psychologically with them, similar to an akidoist blending with an aggressor. This often allows me to divert their aggression and keep them from needing physical restraint. Also, I believe the confidence I project often keeps the kids from pushing to the point of restraint. (They may be in a mental tx facility, but they aren't dumb.)

When we as staff do have to intervene, we have to follow strict procedures to prevent the client's from being injured. Unlike some of the posts who talked about striking clients and chemical restraints, at my agency we can do neither. We also cannot use devices for restraint. Even with the restrictions, we seldom have injuries and they are almost always minor. Intervening before restraint is necessary and moving quickly and confidently when it does become necessary are the biggest factors.