curious

[puunui]

I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan, in addition to Kukkiwon.

I think GM LEE Chong Woo promoted GM Ahn to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, back when all the seniors were getting that around 1990 or so.

 

[mastercole]

I think GM LEE Chong Woo promoted GM Ahn to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, back when all the seniors were getting that around 1990 or so.

I remember seeing GM Ahn's name next to GM Ahn, Dae Sup's name in the Kukkiwon Dan register you sent me. GM Sok Ho Kang's name was also in there.

 

[Earl Weiss]

at any rate, i have made my point, and been proven correct in my assertions.

Well, perhaps correct with regar to certain segments of the TKD world. I think the iisue with your statements were that they painted all Koreans with too broad a brush.

"Twin Fist:
the TRUE origin of TKD is OTHER arts, (primarily but not limited to shotokan) renamed and given a fake history for the sake of nationalism

refute THAT

those are the only two assertions i have made, and niether has been refuted.

The Palgwe's came later, and most credit them with being the first original set of forms

the taeguks even later

the first forms? were mostly japense forms lifted whole from japanese arts"

As I quoted from General Choi's book this was not hidden, in fact it was explicitly disclosed. Yet you called him the biggest thief.

Would be pretty silly for me to refute that which was explicitly disclosed by this Korean.

Do you still consider him to be a thief now being aware of the disclosures and giving credit to those who preceeded him?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

When you say pre-Kukkiwon curriculum I assume you mean a curriculum from some point in time of the old Taekwondo Moodukkwan. or maybe the older Tang Soo Do Moodukkwan? Do you and your students apply for certification through Soobahkdo Moodukkwan, Korea --- or Taekwondo Moodukkwan, Korea?

I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan, in addition to Kukkiwon.

I know that my KJN is ranked in both the Taekwondo Moodukkwan and Kukkiwon. I remember seeing a black belt certificate with Soo Bahk Do on it in his office a long time ago, as well.

Our certificates are signed at the bottom:

Sok Ho Kang, President
Korea Tae Kwon Do Association
Moo Duk Kwan
West Virginia

To be totally honest, I don't know much about what function the KTA really has anymore, or what relationship there is/was between the KTA and Taekwondo MooDukKwan, but that is what is at the bottom of our certificate.

 

[Twin Fist]

Earl, when was that book written again? cus the lies about the origins of TKD started with it's founding and continue to this day by the KKW and many others.

if, as you claim choi was honest about the origins of his martial arts knowledge, then good for him. Glad not everyone is guilty of adding to the BS.

As I quoted from General Choi's book this was not hidden, in fact it was explicitly disclosed. Yet you called him the biggest thief.

Would be pretty silly for me to refute that which was explicitly disclosed by this Korean.

Do you still consider him to be a thief now being aware of the disclosures and giving credit to those who preceeded him?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Rather than hijacking this thread, I have started a thread on the certifcation questions between Puunui, Master Cole and myself here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?100790-Certification&p=1454550#post1454550

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl, when was that book written again? cus the lies about the origins of TKD started with it's founding and continue to this day by the KKW and many others.

if, as you claim choi was honest about the origins of his martial arts knowledge, then good for him. Glad not everyone is guilty of adding to the BS.

That book contains a publication date of 1965. It is (I believe) the first book in English about TKD. It seems to be the english edition of a Korean text which is referred to as being published in 1959. I have not seen the 1959 Text, nor do I read Korean so I could not tell you if it was the same or different. Perhaps someone else on this board (Glenn?) has the Korean edition and could read it.

So, I agree that there is plenty of B.S. out there about the age / origins of TKD, I think what General Choi wrote (Which I do not believe was meant to be a thorough dissertation) disclosed the roots and foundations.

 

[oftheherd1]

well, i just wanted to make sure that I had my definitions correct.

Since, I have said, and I truly believe that TKD's "official" origin is a matter of theft and lies.

Koreans took Shotokan, claimed it was something else, and gave it a new name

thats theft

and in calling it something else, and then making up some myth about 3000 year old dynasties and some other crappola,

thats lying

I am not aware that the Koreans make any claims about 3000 year old dynasties. They do claim something around or a little over 2000 years of recorded history. I also once read that there the Chinese had recorded something about 4000 years ago about the Korean penensula. Exactly what, I don't know. The Koreans, from at least the Three Kingdom Era, record combat amonst themselves, and against China. Much of that was armed combat with the weapons of the day, but it had to include some unarmed combat for those times you suddenly became weaponless, if for no other reason.

hapkido? thats nothing but stolen/renamed aikido with some kicks added in

As has already been pointed out, that is utter nonsense. And since you ask, the history of Hapkido is well known to have come to Korea from GM Choi, after WWII. Anyone who says otherwise, is mistaken, or in fact as you say, being dishonest.

whats the korean judo? and the korean version of kendo?

I personally know next to nothing about Korean Judo. I know my GM had studied it at one time, nearly acheiving BB (an injury prevented it). Gangsters or gangster wannabees used to study Judo, but never belt in it according to the newspapers when I was there. They used to talk about fights by Judo school dropouts, referring to them. Why they chose to be associated with Judo I have no idea, since it is a legitimate art. Perhaps because there is no real Korean art similar to Judo, and Judo is clearly Japanese. As I said, I don't know.

korean martial arts are in large part, the result of theft and lies.

Maybe you have elsewhere, but that really needs clarification to have validity. You are painting with a very broad brush sir.

now this isnt unique to korea

and it is, in this day and age, 50 years after the thefts more or less irrelevant, partiuarly when the arts have grown into thier own unique entities

In which case, if they have correctly stated their borrowing from Chinese or Japanese arts, and changed it to what they like better, how is that theft? And how would you classify any knowledge or technique that was in Korea for several centuries, as to it being Korean or Chinese?

but it is an accurate statement, IMO

I haven't, because I don't have time right now, to read 12 pages of thread. But the above are some of my thoughts. I am well aware that some MA practitioners in many different MA try to show a very ancient lineage. In the far east, that is because the older something is, the more it is to be venerated. When those who do so do it with full knowledge they are wrong in what they say, I think you can make a case for them telling lies.

I am also quite curious, if it hasn't already been asked, since TKD is one of your arts, why are you so angry at TKD? Have some teachers disrespected you personally in some way? Do you not think TKD has any value? Is there no possibility that some things known from older Korean times made their way into TKD? As to kicking, do you see other Korean, Chinese, or Japanese MA using kicks as often as TKD?

Just curious.

 

[Twin Fist]

i am hostile towards liars

if they are honest about the origins of the arts, hey, i have no problem with them.

i think real TKD, the self defense oriented lethal killing art of TKD is very valuable. I have NO use for the direction korea the KKW and WTF is pushing TKD, the sport side of it. I find it worse than useless, i think it is actually HARMING martial arts, and the reputation of not only korean martial arts, but ALL martial arts.

one org teaches cheese, everyone else looks cheesy

ONE guy lies, it makes everyone else less trustworthy by association

 

[Twin Fist]

so earl,
IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?

That book contains a publication date of 1965. It is (I believe) the first book in English about TKD. It seems to be the english edition of a Korean text which is referred to as being published in 1959. I have not seen the 1959 Text, nor do I read Korean so I could not tell you if it was the same or different. Perhaps someone else on this board (Glenn?) has the Korean edition and could read it.

So, I agree that there is plenty of B.S. out there about the age / origins of TKD, I think what General Choi wrote (Which I do not believe was meant to be a thorough dissertation) disclosed the roots and foundations.

 

[RobinTKD]

so earl,
IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?

If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW. I agree that the lies shouldn't be there if they are there, but it's important to remember that the truth is subjective, and it can be interpreted in different ways by different people. The point a lot of people are making is that TKD's roots can go back centuries, Korea, like most countries has a long history of violent conflicts both internal and external, It'd be foolish to think that some kind of fighting system (both armed and unarmed) didn't exist back then.

 

[Twin Fist]

no, the truth is NOT subjective

tkd is NOT 2000 years old

there is no wiggle room in that

it IS based on shotokan

there is no wiggle room in that either

there is nothing subjective about the history of TKD

there was OF COURSE a fighting art in ancient korea

BUT

it was DEAD before the end of ww2, no living masters teaching it, a DEAD art

TKD was created post ww2, it has no roots prior to that other than from the source arts, the primary of which (but not only) is JAPANESE shotokan karate.

this is objective fact.

in effect, using your logic, i could say that the "roots" of english are summarian and babalonian, since they are both spoken languages.

 

[puunui]

tkd is NOT 2000 years old

there is no wiggle room in that

How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?

Taekkyeon is a traditional Korean martial art with a dance-like appearance in some aspects. A Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early as the Three Kingdoms Era and transmitted from Goguryeo to Shilla.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] The earliest existing written source mentioning Taekkyeon is the book Manmulmo (also Jaemulmo), written around 1790 by Lee, Sung-Ji.[SUP][3][/SUP] Taekkyeon is also frequently romanized informally as Taekkyon or Taekyon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon

The book Manmulbo (or: Jaemulbo), written by Sung-Ji Lee around 1790, is probably the first source to mention this Korean art. Other sources claim that Koryusa (Korean history book written in 15th century) is mentioning the art to be "widely encouraged and practiced from the king himself to farmers".​

The martial art/sport is said stemming from subak, and it may be one of the forerunner to the modern art of taekwondo (Japanese karate is one of the major influences here). Many exponents of the art claim that it has nothing to do with taekwondo.
​

http://www.your-martial-arts-resources.com/taekkyon.html

 

[Twin Fist]

How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?

1) irrelevant since it has nothing to do with TKD
2) again, modern takkyon is a recreated art, there is no line going back any further than the end of WW2, other than song duk ki, and his story cant be verified. and in any case, he is dead.

regardlessof what existed in ancient korea, korean martial arts are pretty much all post ww2 creations, inspired by history no doubt, but not connected to it.

this really cant be proven of course, but teh evidence IS there

 

[puunui]

1) irrelevant since it has nothing to do with TKD
2) again, modern takkyon is a recreated art, there is no line going back any further than the end of WW2, other than song duk ki, and his story cant be verified. and in any case, he is dead.

Actually it was a trick question, because I don't think anyone really knows how old taekkyon is. My understanding is that taekkyon was practiced mainly in rural areas by rural, often times uneducated people. It was not something that educated people who could read and write did. Therefore there is little or no reference of it in books. it would be like trying to look up the history of cow tipping in the US. What scholarly work was done on that topic? mastercole, as the only certified taekkyon master in the US, is better equipped to answer or respond than I am.

 

[elder999]

1454645[/URL]] it would be like trying to look up the history of cow tipping in the US. What scholarly work was done on that topic?.

Actually, only horses regularly sleep standing up, because of the way that their knees lock. Cows do not-they lie down fairly regularly-in a variety of positions not unlike those dogs take when they are sleeping. It is also structurally impossible for a single person to tip over a full grown cow.

All of this information is the result of several scholarly works that prove that cow-tipping is a myth.......much like the ancient origins of tae kwon do. :lfao:

 

[puunui]

All of this information is the result of several scholarly works that prove that cow-tipping is a myth.......much like the ancient origins of tae kwon do.

I love it when non-taekwondoin tell us the history of our own art.

 

[elder999]

1454653[/URL]]I love it when non-taekwondoin tell us the history of our own art.

Clearly, no-you don't. :lfao:


(Not my fault you picked a mythologial, non-existent practice for your simile...:lfao: )

 

[puunui]

1) regardlessof what existed in ancient korea, korean martial arts are pretty much all post ww2 creations, inspired by history no doubt, but not connected to it. this really cant be proven of course, but teh evidence IS there

Well, at least you are coming down from the certainty of your previous posts. And I would also say inspired by history and culture. Like I have said before, in the US, if two kids fight, they put up their hands like boxers or wrestle, even if they have no formal training in boxing or wrestling. In korea, two kids fight, and they start throwing kicks at each other. Where does that come from? Shotokan? I don't think so. But all of this really doesn't matter. If you feel the pioneers of taekwondo, or the kukkiwon or wtf are "lying", then you are free to say that. go for it, and see if that makes taekwondo any less popular.

Personally, I think taekwondo is a beautiful thing, a marvelous creation worth a lifetime of study. I believe you think that too, otherwise you wouldn't be studying it for as long as you have. There are enough non-taekwondoin out there who will shout from the top of the mountain about how screwed up taekwondo is. Taekwondo is about unification and working with one another and helping each other get to a better place. It is not about taekwondoin making other taekwondoin feel bad about their art. Let's leave that job to the non-taekwondo practitioners out there.