curious

[Earl Weiss]

so earl,
IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?

Well, since I am not a KKW guy, and since there was no love lost between the General Choi group and the KKW group I am not sure why you think I would want to reconcile what the KKW has done vis a vis a false history. I will leave that to the KKW people.

 

[puunui]

Well, since I am not a KKW guy

I disagree. I think you are a kukkiwon guy, but just haven't realized it yet.

 

[puunui]

If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW.

Maybe not, but the Oh Do Kwan certainly was, and is. In fact, when the new poomsae were being created, the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung was a member of the committee. So the Chang Hon tul are incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae.

 

[puunui]

there was no love lost between the General Choi group and the KKW group

But just because General Choi did not get along with the kwan jang doesn't mean that ITF members have to be at odds with kukki taekwondo practitioners. Remember last summer when you came to the US Open Hanmadang and we had dinner with the referees? We were all from different parts of the country, from different kwan, different teachers, but yet, there we were, sharing a meal and having a good time. That to me is what taekwondo is all about and it is why I say you are a KKW guy but just don't know it yet. You fit right in, and no one treated you any different.

 

[elder999]

1454660[/URL]]Maybe not, but the Oh Do Kwan certainly was, and is. In fact, when the new poomsae were being created, the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung was a member of the committee. So the Chang Hon tul are incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae.

Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:."sine wave"...:lfao:

 

[puunui]

Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:."sine wave"...:lfao:

sine wave wasn't developed when the kukkiwon poomsae were created. So course it wasn't included.

 

[RobinTKD]

But just because General Choi did not get along with the kwan jang doesn't mean that ITF members have to be at odds with kukki taekwondo practitioners. Remember last summer when you came to the US Open Hanmadang and we had dinner with the referees? We were all from different parts of the country, from different kwan, different teachers, but yet, there we were, sharing a meal and having a good time. That to me is what taekwondo is all about and it is why I say you are a KKW guy but just don't know it yet. You fit right in, and no one treated you any different.

Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)

 

[RobinTKD]

Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:."sine wave"...:lfao:

I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave. Also, I take back my original statement, Twin Fist isn't the troll, you are, at least he is initializing a debate, not just useless snide remarks.

 

[elder999]

1454665[/URL]]I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave. Also, I take back my original statement, Twin Fist isn't the troll, you are, at least he is initializing a debate, not just useless snide remarks.

You know, I offered what Ihad for this "debate" with this post(11 pages ago, and I don't know how many pages before you entered.....):

1453991[/URL]]A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan and kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction. When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality, and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese version):

And it was mostly ignored.....

The snide remarks aren't useless-they make me laugh.


:lfao:

See?

 

[Thesemindz]

It seems clear to me that after WWII a small number of martial arts Masters, mostly in Japanese and Chinese styles of martial arts, united to create a national sport to promote Korean nationalism and called that art Taekwondo, and used purported similarities to ancient cultures which inhabited the same general piece of land to try to give that NEW art some air of credibility.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I was at a seminar recently where a Taekwondo instructor told us that TKD was the direct continuation of the practices of Silla empire warriors and that the origin of the movements contained within the forms came specifically from the practices of those warriors while riding their horses long distances to battle lines.

I think there's something wrong with that.

I don't see anything wrong with admitting that the current way that you organize and teach combat techniques is a relatively modern invention. Karate gets "reinvented" all the time. Takahara taught Chuan-Fa, his student Sakukawa taught Te, his student Sokon practiced Shuri-Te, his student Itosu taught Shorin-Ryu, his student Funakoshi taught Shotokan. IT'S THE SAME THING. Or is it? It's each successive instructor's interpretation of that thing, and what makes it legitimate is whether it works and if someone else chooses to pick it up and run with it.

I practice kenpo, from Master Parker's lineage. It was created around the same time as TKD. That doesn't bother me. I don't need to point out that some of the same techniques were being taught hundreds, and possibly even thousands of years ago. My kenpo works. That's what matters.

I think when instructors are feeding their students a straight line of "TKD = Silla empire practices" they are doing a disservice to and yes, lying, to those students. Students who will then go out and repeat that crap and either make fools of themselves or pollute the minds of others. But I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "some people who used to live here used to kick people too." Fine. Does your TKD work on the floor? That's what really matters.

On a separate note, bunkai isn't just "made up," and it isn't about "reverse engineering" or "figuring it out." It's the specific application of specific techniques and it's supposed to be taught. If your instructor isn't teaching you, he's either deliberately withholding information from you, or he doesn't have that information. Which is fine, but shouldn't be used to vilify instructors who actually do know what they are talking about. When I was learning TKD as a child I asked my instructor what the movements in the form were for and he told me "because they look cool." ERRRRR. Wrong answer. I have since learned the actual applications for those movements. From more knowledgeable instructors of course. Just because he didn't know what the movements meant doesn't mean they didn't mean anything. It just means he didn't know what he was talking about.


-Rob

 

[puunui]

When I was learning TKD as a child I asked my instructor what the movements in the form were for and he told me "because they look cool." ERRRRR. Wrong answer. I have since learned the actual applications for those movements. From more knowledgeable instructors of course. Just because he didn't know what they were doesn't mean they weren't there. It just means he didn't know what he was talking about.

Either that, or he was giving you the child's answer, since you were a child when you asked.

 

[Thesemindz]

Either that, or he was giving you the child's answer, since you were a child when you asked.

Perhaps. Perhaps he underestimated the child he was working with.


-Rob

 

[mastercole]

If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW. I agree that the lies shouldn't be there if they are there, but it's important to remember that the truth is subjective, and it can be interpreted in different ways by different people. The point a lot of people are making is that TKD's roots can go back centuries, Korea, like most countries has a long history of violent conflicts both internal and external, It'd be foolish to think that some kind of fighting system (both armed and unarmed) didn't exist back then.

Not true. General Choi was a part of the Kukkiwon.

The Kukkiwon was originally named the "Korea Taekwondo Associaiton Central Gymnaisum" and even after the KTA changed the name, the Gym did not become completely independent from the KTA unitl April 5, 1980.

CHOI Hong Hi lead the naming committee that submitted the name "Taekwondo". He was also President and founding member of the Korea Taekwondo Association. The KTA already had the "Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium" established, at an earlier location. They built a new building and moved it there. Later they changed the name to Kukkiwon.

 

[Twin Fist]

I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave.

cuz it looks retarded, doesnt develop any additional power, creates sloppy movement, looks like an epileptic, is nearly impossible to do RIGHT, and reeks of a desperate attempt by Choi to make himself relevant by creating some supposedly "breakthrough" in training.......

IMO

 

[puunui]

Clearly, no-you don't. :lfao:

No I do. Feel free to tell us the history of korean martial arts at anytime. By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, told me stories about Oyama Sensei when he visited Korea during the 1940's. So the connection between GM Son and Oyama Sensei might be a lot closer than you think.

 

[puunui]

Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)

I do not believe it is the proper time to get into specifics about that sort of thing. I would simply let more time pass. I will say that more and more ITF and ATA practitioners are assimilating into kukki taekwondo. Before the new Kukkiwon president took office, I and others were working on a deal to convert 6000 former ATA black belts in several countries to kukkiwon certification. That is the kind of activity I like to be involved in, not arguing about whether or not someone deserves a kukkiwon 1st dan if they don't know taeguek 1 jang. Imagine how many lives are affected if we make something like that happen.

 

[elder999]

No I do. Feel free to tell us the history of korean martial arts at anytime. By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, told me stories about Oyama Sensei when he visited Korea during the 1940's. So the connection between GM Son and Oyama Sensei might be a lot closer than you think.

Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record. The "official record" on taekwondo, though?

From the WTF website:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

and:

Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese

Now, how do you reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?

 

[Twin Fist]

and thats that

thats why i will NEVER join the KKW, they are liars putting out lies

 

[mastercole]

sine wave wasn't developed when the kukkiwon poomsae were created. So course it wasn't included.

Master Weiss, when was the sine wave added. What is the history of that?

 

[mastercole]

Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)

The Oh Do Kwan style (ITF) already merged into the Kukkiwon. A part of it decided to separate and go to Canada, that was the CHOI Hong Hi part. That mass majority stayed in Korea, in the Oh Do Kwan and support the KTA, it's central gym the Kukkiwon, and the later WTF.