curious

[Twin Fist]

No. I'm sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.

Japan. :lfao:

well played Sir

 

[miguksaram]

the refusal of some to admit the truth isnt my problem Robin.

no one has refuted ANYTHING I have claimed.

The problem is that you are stuck in one moment in time. Did TKD historians claim a 2000 year old art? Yes they did. Why did they do it? Well there is a reason, good or bad, to how this came about. Perhaps you should look more deeply into it rather than spout out how the KKW are thieves, which is curious...if the Koreans are such thieves then why study an art and allow yourself to be ranked in it? What does that make you?

In this modern day and age the vast majority of practitioners of TKD know the real roots of TKD and in fact appreciate it even more than the made up version because the real history depicts the struggles that the TKD pioneers went through to not only practice what they learned but to develop and evolve what they learned into the art we see today. None of the pioneers have denied their karate training. Ask any of them who are still around. Their students do not deny that it either.

If your next argument is "there are still schools that depict this 2000 year old history. I would say yes, you are correct. There are still schools out there who do that. Why? Because they are too lazy to either do their own flyers and borrowed something they found on the internet or they are just too lazy to research the truth themselves. However to keep this rant up about Koreans being thieves and liars does not "butthurt" anyone, just makes you look like a troll. I am curious...did you call the Korean that was overlooking your 3rd dan test a thief and liar when you had the chance? Oh...and your American Flag is backwards on your wall...you may want to fix that.

 

[dancingalone]

We certainly use/teach ground reactive force generation (a.k.a. "deeply rooted to the earth"), but I was taught that the key to generating the power in TSD/TKD is in hip/waist torque/rotation/snap. Something that to my knowledge was not a Shotokan principle.

For instance, the mechanics/power generation demonstrated in this video is vastly different than how I was taught to execute the movements.

Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation. My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei. If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation. My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei. If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.

I was told that just as the Koreans adapted JMA's, the Japanese adapted the Koreans' kicking mechanics. Simply adapt to what is useful. I have no evidence to support this claim, but it is what I was told by my Sahbumnim.

 

[Tez3]

From the above article:" In this first article we've established that the modern labels aren't descriptions of function, that "blocks" aren't blocks, "

IMNSHO if you believe this as an absolute ---"Blocks" aren't --- never are Blocks, then your scope is too narrow.

Blocks in inverted commas... meaning that people are calling a good many things blocks when they aren't actually blocks. Now, it doesn't say blocks are never blocks, you did.
It goes with this and you've taken it entirely out of context.....
"The Okinawan school children were taught the kata so that they could gain the benefits of increased discipline and physical fitness, but the combative meanings of the movements were deliberately obscured in order to ensure training was safe and appropriate for those of a young age. Therefore terms like "Inner-Block", "Outer-Block", "Rising-Block" etc stem from the "watered down" children's karate and not the potent fighting art developed by the warriors of Okinawa ."


Call things 'blocks' and they emphasis the nice part of karate suitable for children, however the things that were called blocks continued to be taught as them when passed on to non Japanese adults.

The movements that really are blocks are of course taught as blocks, just the movements that were formerly known as blocks named so for children's practice are again being called strikes.

 

[dancingalone]

I was told that just as the Koreans adapted JMA's, the Japanese adapted the Koreans' kicking mechanics. Simply adapt to what is useful. I have no evidence to support this claim, but it is what I was told by my Sahbumnim.

Cross pollination is inevitable. I'm a great example of the phenomenon myself. Although I primarily think of myself as a Goju karate-ka, I've intentionally retained some kicking methods from my TKD days as I believe they are advantageous in certain situations.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Cross pollination is inevitable. I'm a great example of the phenomenon myself. Although I primarily think of myself as a Goju karate-ka, I've intentionally retained some kicking methods from my TKD days as I believe they are advantageous in certain situations.

Not only is it inevitable, but I believe when done with careful and dutiful intent, it is an asset.

 

[Twin Fist]

Lookie here,
you just admitted i was right, on BOTH counts, yet you are still arguing with me

i was right, and people are in fact acting like they are all butthurt.

truth hurts, but that isnt my fault, nor is it my problem

1) I aint the one stuck defending the liars that run the KKW

I dont care why they lied, the point is THEY LIED and continue to lie and people continue to defend it, making them liars as well.

Why study tkd if it is based on lies? I didnt know at the time i started. If i was just starting out? knowing what I do about the REAL history of the korean arts? i would avoid them like the plague. It is all based on lies and made up histories that didnt happen.

Great example of this history of korean lies? kuk sul won

great style, no need what so ever to lie about it, but they just cant tell the truth, that the Suh brothers studied TKD, and Hapkido, and some chinese stuff and created a style out of it. NOPE< they gotta lie and weave some bullcrap story about 1000's of years of history and tradition....blah blah blah

it might seem that there is, in matter related to martial arts, an almost national inferiority complex in Korea. I have been there and seen it myself. This is prob a natural reaction to having been a conquered and enslaved people for decades.

BTW- there hasnt been a korean in my lineage since jhoon rhee in 1958.

AMERICAN TKD.
Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Billy Bramer
Brax Boyd
Me

thats for the line i got my 1st dan under

Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Larry Wheeler
William Shelton
Kristi Shawky
ME

thats for my 2nd-4th

no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up

same with the flag crap, what are you talking about?

The problem is that you are stuck in one moment in time. Did TKD historians claim a 2000 year old art? Yes they did. Why did they do it? Well there is a reason, good or bad, to how this came about. Perhaps you should look more deeply into it rather than spout out how the KKW are thieves, which is curious...if the Koreans are such thieves then why study an art and allow yourself to be ranked in it? What does that make you?

In this modern day and age the vast majority of practitioners of TKD know the real roots of TKD and in fact appreciate it even more than the made up version because the real history depicts the struggles that the TKD pioneers went through to not only practice what they learned but to develop and evolve what they learned into the art we see today. None of the pioneers have denied their karate training. Ask any of them who are still around. Their students do not deny that it either.

If your next argument is "there are still schools that depict this 2000 year old history. I would say yes, you are correct. There are still schools out there who do that. Why? Because they are too lazy to either do their own flyers and borrowed something they found on the internet or they are just too lazy to research the truth themselves. However to keep this rant up about Koreans being thieves and liars does not "butthurt" anyone, just makes you look like a troll. I am curious...did you call the Korean that was overlooking your 3rd dan test a thief and liar when you had the chance? Oh...and your American Flag is backwards on your wall...you may want to fix that.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Lookie here,
you just admitted i was right, on BOTH counts, yet you are still arguing with me

i was right, and people are in fact acting like they are all butthurt.

truth hurts, but that isnt my fault, nor is it my problem

1) I aint the one stuck defending the liars that run the KKW

I dont care why they lied, the point is THEY LIED and continue to lie and people continue to defend it, making them liars as well.

Why study tkd if it is based on lies? I didnt know at the time i started. If i was just starting out? knowing what I do about the REAL history of the korean arts? i would avoid them like the plague. It is all based on lies and made up histories that didnt happen.

Great example of this history of korean lies? kuk sul won

great style, no need what so ever to lie about it, but they just cant tell the truth, that the Suh brothers studied TKD, and Hapkido, and some chinese stuff and created a style out of it. NOPE< they gotta lie and weave some bullcrap story about 1000's of years of history and tradition....blah blah blah

it might seem that there is, in matter related to martial arts, an almost national inferiority complex in Korea. I have been there and seen it myself. This is prob a natural reaction to having been a conquered and enslaved people for decades.

BTW- there hasnt been a korean in my lineage since jhoon rhee in 1958.

AMERICAN TKD.
Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Billy Bramer
Brax Boyd
Me

thats for the line i got my 1st dan under

Jhoon Rhee
Allen Steen
Larry Wheeler
William Shelton
Kristi Shawky
ME

thats for my 2nd-4th

no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up

same with the flag crap, what are you talking about?

I think you hit on an interesting point. There is a huge amount of national pride in Korea. The truth is Martial Arts have been practiced in Korea for thousands of years, but only a limited fassion. There weren't TKD schools on every corner, but they were training in some circles. Martial Arts as a business is what is new, and if ShotoKan was close enough, to their idea of what Martial Arts are, I see no reason to re-invent and or attempt to seek only Korean historical training manuals, when the Japanese already took the trouble of creating a modern system. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't consider it a lie to say Korea has been involved in Martial Arts for thousands of years; sure, it was Kung Fu, but didn't all that come from India? Africa?
Sean

 

[Earl Weiss]

Blocks in inverted commas... meaning that people are calling a good many things blocks when they aren't actually blocks. Now, it doesn't say blocks are never blocks, you did.
.

Well here's another quote; " So if the movements we commonly call "blocks" were originally never intended to be applied as blocks, what are they?"

"Never intended" seems pretty clear to me. That's what "It" says. Not what I say.

 

[miguksaram]

thats for my 2nd-4th

no koreans, so you are either imagining things or making things up

same with the flag crap, what are you talking about?

Is this not your video?

If not then I apologize as I thought this was you and your school. If it is then please note that the flag on the back has the stars on the right hand side. This is in correct. I was not making up the Korean on the testing board, however, it may just be the quality of the film which makes it hard to make out the board members. I was speaking about the 3rd and 4th person from the right. If they are not then my mistake. BTW...have you written GM Rhee to remind him what a thief and a liar he is. Just curious.

 

[Twin Fist]

martial arts certainly existed in korea's past, that isnt in question

the problem comes from the fact that there is no school or style in korea today that can honestly trace itself back any further than the end of WW2

during the japanese occupation, all martial arts practice was forbidden, and the local masters killed.

what is practiced as taekkyon today? a modern re-invention of a classic exercise, but thats all it is, a re-invention. At BEST it is based on ONE mans testimony, song duk ki

all other links to the past were severed during the occupation.

there is nothing wrong with saying "we lost what we had, so we took some of this or that and recreated something new for ourselves"

mind you in a very real way, this is all irrelevant, since modern korean martial arts are TODAY, thier own entity

but the thing is, if you cant or wont tell the truth about your origins, your entire house is crap because it is based on a lie.

I think you hit on an interesting point. There is a huge amount of national pride in Korea. The truth is Martial Arts have been practiced in Korea for thousands of years, but only a limited fassion. There weren't TKD schools on every corner, but they were training in some circles. Martial Arts as a business is what is new, and if ShotoKan was close enough, to their idea of what Martial Arts are, I see no reason to re-invent and or attempt to seek only Korean historical training manuals, when the Japanese already took the trouble of creating a modern system. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don't consider it a lie to say Korea has been involved in Martial Arts for thousands of years; sure, it was Kung Fu, but didn't all that come from India? Africa?
Sean

 

[Twin Fist]

thats not my school, thats my instructors school. She hangs the flag however she wants to. And in either case, thats how we hang the stars and stripes here. and are you seriously gonna get THAT petty?

The person you are referring to is GM WILLIAM SHELTON 8th Dan under GM Larry Wheeler, He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean.

Here is a clip of him:

he is doing a japanese form BTW, i asked him why he does japanese forms he said "thats TKD's roots"

 

[miguksaram]

thats not my school, thats my instructors school. She hangs the flag however she wants to. And in either case, thats how we hang the stars and stripes here. and are you seriously gonna get THAT petty?

Not trying to be petty, just making an observation. Sounds like your butt is starting to get sore for someone pointing out just a simple observation about the wrong way of hanging the flag. You are right...you can hang the flag however you want...still makes it the wrong regardless.

The person you are referring to is GM WILLIAM SHELTON 8th Dan under GM Larry Wheeler, He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean.

he is doing a japanese form BTW, i asked him why he does japanese forms he said "thats TKD's roots"

Thanks for pointing out that the gentleman was half-Korea, nice to know that my eyes aren't totally bad and that I'm not making things up. So since he is a half Korean martial artist, did you explain to him why he is a half liar & thief since you declared that when it comes to martial arts Koreans are liars and thieves?

 

[Twin Fist]

it isnt MY flag, so it isnt MY way of hanging it Hoss.

he isnt korean. Pretty sure i said that, leme see.

yep right there
"He is half white, and half korean on his mother's side. Army brat. American, doesnt speak a word of korean."

so you again are being petty

sorry the truth makes your *** so sore.

 

[Twin Fist]

at any rate, i have made my point, and been proven correct in my assertions.

if you have to lie, you will never get respect

Thus ends the lesson

 

[puunui]

No. I'm sure he means he'd go to the source, as I did.

Japan. :lfao:

As far as countries go, the source would be Okinawa, or even China, not Japan.

Speaking of a different source, if you wanted pressure points, joint locks and throws, why not study something like Jujutsu or even Hapkido instead of having to do the easter egg hunt thing with karate bunkai? By learning Jujitsu or Hapkido directly, you would get not only those pressure points, joint locks and throws, but you would also have the benefit of learning those techniques in an organized, orderly fashion.

 

[puunui]

Everyone is a lot of people. That's the thing about bunkai, it develops one powers of imagination to great heights.

Reverse engineering applications into forms doesn't sound like the most efficient utilization of one's training time to me. It does, as you say, help stimulate one's imagination.

 

[puunui]

Current JKA and JKS Shotokan standards have hip twist as a key principle of power generation. My idle thought is that became more of an emphasis under the leadership of Nakayama, Matayoshi in Shotokan than perhaps under Funakoshi Sensei. If you look at Nakayama Sensei's book Dynamic Karate, a primer on circa 1960s-1970s Shotokan, there are a few pages on the topic.

The shotokan karate of FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who was GM LEE Won Kuk's teacher, was more focused on weight transfer than merely hip twist. Yoshitaka Sensei put his whole body into his techniques, which was passed on to the students of the Chung Do Kwan. An example of this can be found in the kukkiwon poomsae hansu, in those three punches in the beginning.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well here's another quote; " So if the movements we commonly call "blocks" were originally never intended to be applied as blocks, what are they?"

"Never intended" seems pretty clear to me. That's what "It" says. Not what I say.

As Tez mentioned, Itosu Sensei did change the terminology of certain kata, specifically the Pinan series for the consumption of Okinawan school children. Itosu Sensei was a college professor and was instrumental in having Karate implemented in the school system. His change of terminology took out the more damaging principles of the kata bunkai. It was replaced/relabled with various types of 'blocks'. These movements weren't intended, in the original bunkai, to be actual blocks. The question of 'what are they' will differ depending upon the movement we're examining. For example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan can be interpreted as a block with the palm while covering the head with the upper arm. This isn't the most efficent, or practical use for this movement. The bunkai, as originally taught by Itosu was a shoulder lock which could then be translated into a takedown. The common 'high block' could be interpreted as blocking/intercepting/deflecting an overhead attack. While this could have merit in some circumstances, it doesn't take into account the other hand that is chambered on the hip. In Okinawan Karate, no movements were wasted i.e. economy of motion. The bunkai for the chambering of the hand/fist on the hip is most often that of having something in the hand and bringing it to you i.e. grasping the attacker's arm or clothing and bringing it into your center and off-balancing him while simultaneously delivering a forearm strike to the upper body/throat or head of the attacker as he is coming into you. This can be accomplished at 'normal' fighting distance i.e. arms length but more importantly at grappling distance.

Another example is the 'down block' (some have other names for it). This is the 'block' that is in a downward arcing motion to your side, commonly taught to block/deflect and incoming kick from the side. Here is the issue though with that interpretation; it puts the shin bone of the attacker against the radial bone of the defender. The radial bone is the smallest bone in the forearm and is less dense/strong than the shin bone. As someone that has done hard body conditioning, a shin type kick (side snap kick for example) can and will break the arm of the defender. Trust me...I know the damage a conditioned shin can do to someone. The more accurate bunkai (depending upon the source material) would be of a downward hammer fist to someone's groin, often from a grappling position. It is quick, accurate and allows for multiple follow up strikes/locks.

These are just some quick, short worded examples for consideration. Sorry to take it off topic but you asked a legitimate question that I felt deserved some response.