mastercole
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You did not know that CHOI Hong Hi, your instructors arch nemesis, introduced the sine wave AFTER the ITF assisted with the creation of the Kukkiwon Poomsae?
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You did not know that CHOI Hong Hi, your instructors arch nemesis, introduced the sine wave AFTER the ITF assisted with the creation of the Kukkiwon Poomsae?
mastercole
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I don't get it? The first video guy is doing Mas Oyama style, the second guy looks like old Moodukkwan style. What am I missing in regard to the sine wave?
Does the Kyokushin official record mention Oyama Sosai studying with GM LEE Won Kuk or members of the Chung Do Kwan? If so, what does the official record say about that?
I already explained it in an earlier post, which I believe is in this thread. Basically, the WTF webpage is discussing the emphasis on kicking in a competition format which comes from Taekkyon, while you and others are ignoring that and concentrating solely upon forms, which until recently was not a part of the WTF and still not part of Olympic taekwondo. The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo for the International Olympic Committee, and your quote from the WTF webpage attempts to explain that aspect of taekwondo. Or am I wrong and shotokan developed a competition based on full contact kicking to the body and head in the 1940's or before? If not, where did that come from? Answer: Not from Shotokan.
I think his point is the taekwondo comes from shotokan (and shotokan only) because of that form. Which of course ignores the korean cultural aspects of taekwondo, including but not limited to emphasizing kicking over punching in a physical encounter. So once again, those in the "taekwondo is shotokan" camp argue that taekwondo is shotokan because of those forms, while those attempting to explain taekwondo's emphasis on kicking focus on korean culture and its long history. The analogy I gave was that that the "shotokan is taekwondo" people are like blind men, feeling the trunk of an elephant and exclaiming to the whole world that an elephant is really a snake. I guess if you narrowly concentrate on the elephant's trunk, then that might seem to be true, but we have eyes and can the elephant as a whole, which doesn't look like a snake at all. And when we say that an elephant is not a snake, some people feel the need to call us liars.
that is the cliffnotes summary of this thread.
But that is like feeling the trunk of an elephant, it is not the whole of taekwondo, anymore than the trunk is the whole of the elephant.
mastercole
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From the WTF website:
However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest). 
and:
Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese
Now, how do you reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?
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Officials of the KTA, Kukkiwon and the WTF have stated, in writing that Taekwondo descends from multiple lines of martial arts lineage. Karate & Chuanfa being the most organized lines, and Taekkyon being the natural and indigenous line. From my many trips to Korea to specifically study Taekwondo, it's history and it's relation to Karate, Chuanfa and Taekkyon, I see no conflict. But maybe some of you and your exhaustive and extensive research surpasses my own. I would be interested in seeing the details of your findings.
What Glenn comparison of punching and wrestling being natural in western society, and kicking being natural in Korean society is correct. Korean people developed a natural use of their legs over millenia, walking up and down mountainous areas, daily. Korean people have a natural feel for using their legs in ways Westerners do not normal find natural. This is the root of Taekkyon. Taekkyon was a generic, Korean villager name for kicking, that is what it means in pure Korean, with no Hanja, it means simply kicking. There were two regions around Seoul that had groups who did focused training in Taekkyon in preparation for the Tanho Festival, there were no formalized dojangs, or even formalized training. It was a bunch of village guys who got together and traded techniques that were used successfully in the Taekkyon competition at last years festival. Those two regions of Seoul were called Woodae and Araedae. Those two groups were the two main rival groups at the Tanho Festival. Other competitions also took place at that festival, not just martial arts like Taekkyon and Ssiruum. The Tanho Festival continues to this day.
GM SONG Duk Ki was from Woodae and trained in the stable of IM Ho. What we know today of Taekkyon, 99% of it comes from GM Song. Taekkyon of today is not a modern creation, it is trained in a modern format, and organized in a modern structure to assist it's preservation and growth. The skills of Taekkyon today all descend directly from GM Song. GM Song had/has several dedicated students, some who started training with him as complete beginners, and some who came to him as experienced martial artist. A few of these students made a great effort to record everything that GM Song could teach them, which was a lot. However, GM Song stated to his scholarly disciples that he did not remember all of the skills or names of some skills that he had learned. There were also skills that GM Song remembered, but forgot their application. These scholarly students wrote it all done and created curriculum so that it could be saved.
One of GM Songs disciples, GM SHIN Han Seung, presented a collection of curriculum to the Korean Minister of Culture who after a study on the subject designated Taekkyon as an Intangible Cultural Asset of Korea. Recently the United Nations division UNESCO reviewed the validity of Taekkyon as an Intangible Cultural Asset of Humanity, awarded Taekkyon this official designation from UNESCO, making Taekkyon the first and only martial art in the world to get this qualification.
'Taekkyon,' 'tightrope walking' added to UNESCO intangible heritage list
SEOUL, Nov. 28 (Yonhap) -- Korea's martial art taekkyon and tightrope walking received world intangible heritage status from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) on Monday, the world body said.
In a meeting in Bali, Indonesia, the UNESCO Intergovernmental Committee for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage added the Korean assets "taekkyon" and "jultagi" (tightrope walking) to the intangible list, it said."
So as Glenn pointed out, kicking (Taekkyon) has always been a part of Korea culture and it existed as a Korean methods of sport and self defense long before the arrival of Karate or Chuanfa, or other marital arts. When our Korean seniors meet with these martial arts of Karate, Chuanfa, etc, it was natural for them to blend it with the kicking they had already naturally grown up with.
Example: When face to face in an interview, I asked GM Chong Woo Lee, a founder of Jidokwan, KTA, Kukkiwon and WTF, and main proponent of "Olympic Sparring" --these questions, he told me that his teacher GM CHUN Sang Sup learned karate in Japan from Funakoshi Sensei, he also said that most of them had never taken any formal training in Taekkyon like they did Karate, but they had naturally liked to kick, saw Taekkyon skills and incorporated that experience into creating Taekwondo.
If we understood Korea a little better, we would understand what they are trying to tell us. The problem is, due to ignorance of Korean culture, some people express that ignorance by calling Korean's liars, thieves and cheats. But hate and ignorance are part of the same set of "defilements" which training CORRECTLY in martial arts is supposed to overcome, NOT magnify. If a person has been training CORRECTLY in martial arts for a long period of time, they would not have this sort of problem.
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mastercole
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Exactly!
"For myself, for the Kwan, for the country, based on these three words, Jidokwan was founded in March 3rd of 1946. The Jidokwan was first titled as Cho Sun Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu.
The Cho Sun Yun Moo Kwan first founded by CHUN, Sang Sup, the first grandmaster of Jidokwan. Master CHUN, Sang Sup first started his martial arts career in Judo during his high school years, then he attended Dong Yang Chuck Sik (Takushoku) College in Japan, where he mastered Karate" ~ GM Chong Woo Lee, Jidokwan Leader, past WTF Secretary General, a founder of KTA and Kukkiwon.
"Byung-in Yoon, foudner of YMCA Chang Moo Kwan graduated from Sin Kyung Middle School in Manchuria and practiced in Chinese Chuanfa in 1930. He went to Japan and studied in Japanese University and was know to have a relationship with Shudokan and it's leader YOYAMA Kanken who trained an recognized Yoon as a 4th Dan in Karate" ~ GM Kyo Yoon Lee, founder of Han Moo Kwan, a fonder of KTA and Kukkiwon. Chairman of Kukkiwon 8th and 9th Dan testing committee.
GM Kyong Myong Lee, a founding signatory of the WTF also stated that 4 of the 5 main Kwan founders learned Karate.
So this is nothing new, and nothing that is denied.
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mastercole
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Sensei's Funakoshi, Mabuni, Toyama and others brought many types of Kata, including the Heian from Okinawa, they were not originally from Japan. Their Korean students were educated and could read the Chinese characters, so they pronounced Heian as Pyongahn. We have all known that from day one. I don't think anyone has ever denied that.
By the way I saw that video Jeremy posted. Not only is Sejong (세종
pronounced incorrectly, it is also performed incorrectly, and it is incorrect that Sejong invented Hangul -- scholars invented hangul, and it was 28 shapes they presented, not 24. I know, because I visited his tomb, saw the original documents in the National Museum of Korea and attended the Sejong exhibit. Chulki is also pronounced wrong by everyone, as well as performed wrong. IMEO
By the way I saw that video Jeremy posted. Not only is Sejong (세종
pronounced incorrectly, it is also performed incorrectly, and it is incorrect that Sejong invented Hangul -- scholars invented hangul, and it was 28 shapes they presented, not 24. I know, because I visited his tomb, saw the original documents in the National Museum of Korea and attended the Sejong exhibit. Chulki is also pronounced wrong by everyone, as well as performed wrong. IMEO
OP
Twin Fist
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as long as the KKW, the self proclaimed world wide leaders of TKD continue to push these lies, they will get called liars.
Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record. The "official record" on taekwondo, though?
From the WTF website:
However, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including Taekkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyon [Taekwondo] had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-Ki, one of the then masters testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyon, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." (explanation of taekkon techniques in muyedobo-tongji (general illustrations of techniques) (scene of contest).
and:
Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after World War II, the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games resumed their popularity. Song Duk-Ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyon, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first republic of Korea president Syngman Rhee on the occasion of his birthday, clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese Karate which had been introduced by the Japanese
Now, how do you reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?
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mastercole
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Maybe if your instructors did not lie to you, you would not call them liars.
To focus solely on the physical techniques of Taekwondo when analyzing its history is to neglect at least half of that history. Many practitioners study Taekwondo as an art in which the smallest unit of technique is deeply imbued with an underlying philosophy, the goals of which include peace, harmony, and unity for mankind via the physical, mental, and spiritual development of individuals. This is the Taekwondo created by the men who worked toward its unification. Anyone unfamiliar with the immense magnitude of the intertwining of technique and philosphy in Kukkiwon Taekwondo may find, for example, Grandmaster LEE, Kyong Myong's detailed explanations in "Korean Traditional Martial Art: Taekwondo Philosophy and Culture" quite enlightening. Grandmaster Lee is a Kukkiwon 9th dan black belt who served as Deputy Secretary General of the World Taekwondo Federation from 1991 to 1999.
"The virtue of taekwondo training, which aims at perfection of an all-around human being, can be well manifested in one's achievement of the mind of hongik-ingan through the enhancement of harmony between mind and body, thereby believing in the merits of living in homologous cooperation between human beings and other human beings or between human beings and nature. Therefore, taekwondo training must be conducted in a close coordination among the spiritual, moral, and physical training, which are inseparable from one another." -- LEE, Kyong Myong, p. 41 "Korean Traditional Martial Art: Taekwondo Philosophy and Culture
Note: hongik-ingan is defined as "humanitarianism"
When that inherent philosophy is viewed as tangential, at best, or irrelevant, at worst, any analysis of Taekwondo's history will necessarily be incomplete and inaccurate. The philosophy (e.g., Han, Taoist, Buddhist) inherent in every movement of Kukkiwon Taekwondo is, indeed, ancient.
Peace,
Cynthia
"The virtue of taekwondo training, which aims at perfection of an all-around human being, can be well manifested in one's achievement of the mind of hongik-ingan through the enhancement of harmony between mind and body, thereby believing in the merits of living in homologous cooperation between human beings and other human beings or between human beings and nature. Therefore, taekwondo training must be conducted in a close coordination among the spiritual, moral, and physical training, which are inseparable from one another." -- LEE, Kyong Myong, p. 41 "Korean Traditional Martial Art: Taekwondo Philosophy and Culture
Note: hongik-ingan is defined as "humanitarianism"
When that inherent philosophy is viewed as tangential, at best, or irrelevant, at worst, any analysis of Taekwondo's history will necessarily be incomplete and inaccurate. The philosophy (e.g., Han, Taoist, Buddhist) inherent in every movement of Kukkiwon Taekwondo is, indeed, ancient.
Peace,
Cynthia
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The world leaders of taekwondo, at the Kukkiwon and WTF, are elected. They are not self proclaimed. As for pushing lies, I highly doubt that the leaders of the Kukkiwon or WTF even read the webpage, especially in english. So I can't see how they would be "pushing" anything. But that's ok. Don't let that stop you.
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The world leaders of taekwondo, at the Kukkiwon and WTF, are elected. They are not self proclaimed. As for pushing lies, I highly doubt that the leaders of the Kukkiwon or WTF even read the webpage, especially in english. So I can't see how they would be "pushing" anything. But that's ok. Don't let that stop you.
I'd say the quality of the "english" is pretty clear evidence that they wrote it.
So it is your position that the Presidents of the WTF and Kukkiwon wrote what is on the WTF and Kukkiwon webpages? I would think that they have more important things to concentrate on than that.
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Oh, no-it's pretty clear that the "history" on that page was written by someone for whom English is a second language, or badly translated from Korean by someone for whom English is a second language, and Korean is a third, but if you haven't recognized by now that I don't really have a position on most of this-other than the kata coming from Japan, and the "sine wave" being silly-let me make it clear:
The Pyung ahn forms came from the early Korean TKD masters exposure to Japanese/Okinawan karate, and the sine wave is silly.
That is all. :lfao:
Well, no, it's not-culturally, it isn't likely that the Koreans would have received quality instruction from the Japanese, any more than the Japanese necessarily did from the Okinawans. After the end of WWII they were left to their own devices, and made something different from what they had learned-and that something continued to evolve-50 odd years later, its "official" form bears little resmeblance to that early "Korean karate".....
.....but it didn't come from "ancient Korean" anythying, except maybe "cultural values."
That is all.
mastercole
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No one says the Pyongahn came from ancient Korea, we always knew it came from Okinawa. So I don't understand your point. Did you read what I wrote and quoted the Taekwondo leaders stating that their teachers learned Karate and Chuanfa?
I was responding to this comment by twinfist, who said:
That's why I said I highly doubt that the world leaders at Kukkiwon and WTF even read the Kukkiwon or WTF webpages in english.
The pioneers didn't learn from the Japanese, they learned in Japan from Okinawan teachers. Oyama Sensei did learn from Yamaguchi Sensei and Yoshida Sensei but for Shotokan he apparently learned directly from Gichin Sensei, who was Okinawan.
GM LEE Won Kuk said that NAKAYAMA Masayoshi Sensei was his junior who came after him. And they were not left to their own devices, in fact GM Lee stated that he did go to the Shotokan after he returned to Japan in 1950-1976 but didn't like the direction his junior Nakayama Sensei was taking Shotokan, because it was against the original principles of what he learned prior to WWII. He said those that took over and created the JKA were low ranked inexperienced people who started immediately before or after WWII or those, like Nakayama Sensei, who had been away from karate and Japan for much of WWII. He said that what most people called "Shotokan" today is very different than what he learned, which was a more natural relaxed style, instead of the rigid, stiff, unnatural style that is the JKA trademark. I took JKA karate for four years and quit because I felt that couldn't be good for one's body. All the seniors had back problems and other aliments, even back then.
And left to their own devices, I don't think so, because in the late 50's and early 60's, there were many exchange trips between Korea and Japan. The pioneers were greatly interested in Japanese Karate, their organizations how they set things up, and so forth.
But yes, the Pinan kata that was practiced by you at GM Son's dojang came from GM LEE Won Kuk, who learned karate at the Shotokan under Gichin Sensei's son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei. Even the name Chung Do Kwan, is derived from the same Shotokan (pinewaves) (Song Do Kwan in Korean). GM Lee changed the Song character to Chung (meaning blue) to create the name Chung Do Kwan (bluewaves) while sitting on a beach in Korea and watching the waves crash onto the sand. No one disputes those pinan kata came from shotokan. What is disputed is that Shotokan = Taekwondo, which fails to take into account all of the other aspects of taekwondo which is not from okinawan karate.
See mastercole's explanation of taekkyon and korean culture, if you don't wish to read my further posts to you.
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Did you read what I posted from the official WTF webpage "history?"
Can you not see how confusing that is? How some might insist on calling it a "lie," and those who promulgate its content "liars?"
