Criticisms of Karate

[Jill666]

 

[KennethKu]

The message is not totally offbase. Unfortunately, the messenger, PA in this case, is the wrong messenger.

 

[platinum_angel]

OK, you win...

don't just give up i want to have a discussion........thats the purpose of saying all of this. if i was trying to piss you guys off i would be cursing like mad and making even general statements then what i am already making.

I agree cross-training, once a good base is laid in one martial art, can help further develop you own effectiveness as a fighter, and deepen your understanding of what you are doing. Which is why I also study other arts. I find learning from a different perspective makes me look at what I am doing in Kenpo. (Plus you learn all this other cool $h!t)

see i agree with that. if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.

What art do you study Angel?

currently i am studing freestyle wrestling and normal wrestling in summer program.

*smiles*

You are firmly convinced that Karate will teach you nothing of worth, but then cite the amount of time it takes to earn a black belt in your art as some form of benchmark of its quality instruction.

i did have quality instruction OF KARATE.

You say that your teachers have failed to teach you anything that will prepare you for fighting, then defend your style and the amount of time (quite small, really, and by your own comments only about 10% of the way toward black belt, at which time you would only truly be able to say you had been exposed to all the basics and were ready for real study) you have invested in it.

when did i defend my style. lol. i have been saying its ineffective:rofl:

You haven't studied long enough or deeply enough, and perhaps with the incorrect teachers, to allow you to understand much of anything. Trying to convince you is impossible. If you want to learn what traditional training really conveys, next time you are in the Tacoma area, look me up. The offer has been put out there to anyone that thinks that a) TMA are worthless, b) TMA can't teach you to fight in a short period of time, and c) forms training is just so much garbage. I guarantee I can show you they are... Whether that changes your obviously well researched, deeply studied, and strongly felt beliefs, only time could tell. Not a challenge, just an offer to learn. Others have been offered the same, and to this day have failed to take me up on it. Wonder why?

mabye its because you intiminated them with your vast superiority:rofl: :rofl:

i don't even know where tacoma is. i think arizona

You have yet to show any proof that any of the above things are not useful. All you have done is air your opinion, and opinions remain much akin to anal sphincters...

go to the ufc's website and look for someone takes karate and participates in it too. i have only seen one guy and he was cross trained. majority BJJ and kickboxing.

You have 1.5 years of training. That's not even enough time to learn how to stand properly! I would bet money that, with that little time spent in training, there are thousands of flaws in the techniques you think are most worthless that make them so. More time spent practicing and less time spent karate-bashing would help iron out some of those issues...

within that time i learned how to tie my belt, learn 4 katas, stand properly in all forms, and a lot of useless techniques.

And the vast experience you base this observation on is what exactly? How many schools have you attended and trained at? How many styles of karate (or other martial arts) have you been exposed to deeply enough to really "understand" what was going on?

i compare karate practitioners to a street fighter and i compare that art to arts that i have been in.

So first you say that karate is ineffective, then you say it is effective. Which is it? I'm starting to get dizzy...

i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter. but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.

You know how to box? Really? How many bouts do you have under your belt? What's your record?

i have never been in a bout but does that mean i don't know how to box. i spent a year boxing with a friend but then i had to move to another school. is it just me or are you starting to make personal attacks on me.:rofl:

Ah, the sweet smell of brutal honesty.

i don't smell anything

all of your posts are starting to sound strikingly familiar

 

[chufeng]

PA,

I am biting my tongue here, because I hate wasting my time with trolls...but I am giving you the benefit of a doubt.

i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter. but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.

Weightlifting does nothing to make one a good fighter...it makes one good at weight-lifting. If one were to learn how to fight AND lift weights, that would be a different story.

After 6 months in YiLiQuan, My brothers could not touch me (both with ten-plus years of boxing and 100s of competition matches under their belts...regional champions...one went to the nationals, twice...one boxed on a USA team in Europe) I will admit that I had two years of boxing and five years of Judo...but Judo does not prepare you to fight a boxer...

Your argument of 15 years in training does not wash...

The key is finding QUALITY instruction...you CLAIM that you had quality instruction...I say BS...you believe you had quality instruction but reality says you did not...

I don't really care what you study, where you want to go with this discusion, or why you posted in the first place...but don't dis Karate because you didn't "get it"...

Find a better dojo...
...and if you choose not to follow Karate, or Ch'uan Fa...then understand that your 1.5 years of "experience" adds up to scat and you really don't know what you're talking about.

regards...Who needs a wake-up?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[platinum_angel]

Weightlifting does nothing to make one a good fighter...it makes one good at weight-lifting. If one were to learn how to fight AND lift weights, that would be a different story.

so your saying the average weight lifter could not take the average karate pratitioner. i would bet money on it.

After 6 months in YiLiQuan, My brothers could not touch me (both with ten-plus years of boxing and 100s of competition matches under their belts...regional champions...one went to the nationals, twice...one boxed on a USA team in Europe) I will admit that I had two years of boxing and five years of Judo...but Judo does not prepare you to fight a boxer...

cool see you cross train. but i doubt they couldn't touch you. unless yiliquan is a ground fighting art.

The key is finding QUALITY instruction...you CLAIM that you had quality instruction...I say BS...you believe you had quality instruction but reality says you did not...

I don't really care what you study, where you want to go with this discusion, or why you posted in the first place...but don't dis Karate because you didn't "get it"...

Find a better dojo...
...and if you choose not to follow Karate, or Ch'uan Fa...then understand that your 1.5 years of "experience" adds up to scat and you really don't know what you're talking about.

wow strong words.

wow i didn't think you'd get this emotional and protective. i'll make a deal with if you want to end this discussion now i will to. but if you want to keep discussing it too, then i will. i could go on for hours. i have also decided that it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.:rofl:

 

[chufeng]

PA,

Apparently you missed the little piece on Judo training...but I never had to resort to groundfighting...

and

it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.

Since you make a clear indication that your cup is full, your mind is closed, and you want nothing to do with Karate...I see no reason to continue...


chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.

Unless, of course, you are not taking one of the knock-off brands of karate, and are studying one of the styles that never lost the joint-locks and throws that are already contained therein...

i did have quality instruction OF KARATE.

For having had such "quality" instruction, you sure do speak poorly of what you learned... You say that karate is ineffective, then say it is effective... So which is it?

when did i defend my style. lol. i have been saying its ineffective:rofl:

Every time you say that your training was of high quality. Because if it really had been, then in the 1.5 years you have been studying you would have been exposed to much more than you apparently have been.

And if it is so ineffective, why do you continue to study it and defend your teachers as having provided you with good instruction, which clearly it wasn't, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

mabye its because you intiminated them with your vast superiority:rofl: :rofl:

and

is it just me or are you starting to make personal attacks on me.:rofl:

Seems you are the only one making personal attacks and snide comments...

i don't even know where tacoma is. i think arizona

All the sarcastic comments I could make are being choked down as I type... Ever hear of this new thing called a map? Do a search on the internet, I'm sure you'll find out where Tacoma is... Or you could even look under my name on the left side of the screen, and it'll tell you right where I am.

Suddenly things are beginning to fall into place...

go to the ufc's website and look for someone takes karate and participates in it too. i have only seen one guy and he was cross trained. majority BJJ and kickboxing.

And if you look at Wimbledon's website, you'll see that all the athlete's that participate in the events held there train specifically for that environment as well... You see a lot of boxers training in wrestling? No. Why? Because the format of their sport doesn't need it... If you want to compete in the UFC and all the other copy cat events, based primarily on the use of submission wrestling, then you must train in submission arts to be competitive... I still want to see a Gracie take on 6 guys at once and see how well BJJ fares...

within that time i learned how to tie my belt, learn 4 katas, stand properly in all forms, and a lot of useless techniques.

Tying your belt. Nice. Four kata? Which ones? Standing properly? Really? And who told you that? The teachers whose instruction you say is ineffective and useless? Useless techniques? Which ones, specifically? Have you told your karate teachers that you thought their teachings are ineffective and useless? Just curious... :idunno:

i compare karate practitioners to a street fighter and i compare that art to arts that i have been in.

There is no such thing as a "street fighter." A "street fighter" does not have the benefit of training, repeated instruction and conditioning, etc. He does what he does, and it works once to get him out of a scrape. He relies on sneakiness and dirty tricks to win the edge - it has nothing to do with "technique."

i have never said it was effective. i was saying there that of course after 15 years in karate you might be a good fighter.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that the learning curve to traditional martial arts is slower to produce fighters than other methods...? :idunno: Because by saying that karate produces good fighters sure sounds a lot like saying karate is effective...

but then again after 15 years of weightlifting someone can become a good fighter to.

Only if they are trying to beat up the barbell... :lol:

Lifing weights does not teach you a thing whatsoever about dealing with an opponent. To make such a statement is flatly assinine.

i have never been in a bout but does that mean i don't know how to box. i spent a year boxing with a friend but then i had to move to another school.

So in addition to never having tested your boxing skills (though you "know" you know how), you spent a year boxing with a friend while a schoolboy? How old are you?

i don't smell anything

all of your posts are starting to sound strikingly familiar

Having trouble seeing the forest because the trees are obstructing the view, I'd say.

Whose posts do my posts remind you of? Others who disagree with you?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
so your saying the average weight lifter could not take the average karate pratitioner. i would bet money on it.

I am beginning to see that your ability to present a telling argument in favor of your thusfar unsubstantiated "karate sucks" claims is likely to continue degrading as time goes on...

cool see you cross train. but i doubt they couldn't touch you. unless yiliquan is a ground fighting art.

And your camp is revealed... Another "ground fighting is everything" adherent. Well, to get to the person to take them down, you have to spend some time standing up. And if they aren't in the mood to allow you to take them down, well...

And the way I see it, it wasn't cross training... Cross training implies training in different arts that is concurrently ongoing. Chufeng's training in boxing and judo preceded his time in Yiliquan.

i have also decided that it is not my place to preach to you guys that karate sucks. even though it does.:rofl:

Always nice to see that your response remain mature and adult...

How old are you again? Not that we would know if you were telling the truth or not, but your argument style is reminiscent of a know it all preteen, which would fit in with the 1.5 years of excellent, quality instruction in useless, ineffective martial arts.

I'm done with you. Rant on as you like, but your comments stand as blistering testimony to all that read them that you really haven't the first clue as to what you are saying.

Another log for the pile, I suppose...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[platinum_angel]

do you really want me to reply to your posts.:rofl: :rofl:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
do you really want me to reply to your posts.:rofl: :rofl:

No, not at all. You have nothing I care to hear. You are obviously devoid of beneficial information, are unwilling to quantify and qualify your comments, and care only to bait and troll this board to foment unrest.

No, I really am finished with you on this topic. Perhaps we can exchange information regarding other subjects, but in this one I have no further use for you...

Good day.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[platinum_angel]

hmmmmmmmm

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
see i agree with that. if you take karate and cross-train it with hapkido or something then you will become a better fighter.

By this one statement alone I can tell your teachers never exposed you to any “real” Karate which includes tuite.
Tuite IS grappling and IS found in karate kata and IS effective.
I would suspect your teachers (this is if you really did study karate) didn’t show you any of this because of your poor attitude and probably chose not show you anything good hoping you would either change your attitude or leave.

So if Karate sucks so bad why don’t you go back to the Karate school you were in and kick all their asses?

Then you could brag to all your little high school pals how “you da man”.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
By this one statement alone I can tell your teachers never exposed you to any “real” Karate which includes tuite.

Of course, here in the States that's quite common--Karate largely means punch and kick here. George Dillman has effected some changes in that regard but not much.

Recall that Karate is a generic term here, too--for many people it means Korean Karate (i.e. TKD). Yes, the term 'Korean Karate' grates on my ears too, but I'm suggesting there may be differences of terminology here--using the same words with different connotations. It also isn't clear to me if the poster studied American Goju or another type of Goju.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by platinum_angel
*yawns*

hmm let me start out by saying i have taken a year and a half of goju-ryu karate.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
It also isn't clear to me if the poster studied American Goju or another type of Goju.

If the quality of instruction is as substandard as it seems, I question whether he would even know or not...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

I question whether he studied karate of any sort at all.....or whether he just came here to "troll"

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

He's just been putting every one in a circular conversation, getting all of us riled up.

PA,
Have you trained enough in goju to be introduced to the iron body teqniques, What association were you training with?
If you are a student of any kind then you should know that basing your opinion of karate on one or two teachers does not give you a complete picture. Besides I would like to hear your reason as to why karate sucks. Was it the kata training, the fact that you get hit in trainging, or the lack of it, was it that you were trainging in a point tournament school, or a full contact dojo? Please tell us the reason. If it was the school that turned you off then perhaps you should ask the admin for help finding a reputable association , and from there a school that is near you who's style you like.

But I am curious to know.

In addition I practice one of the sister styles of goju ryu. So pardon me If I get my feathers ruffled.Plus If you train right, the boxers will not want to hit you and the wretlers will not want to come too close.

Please reply with some respect. Some of the people on this board get angry when you criticize something that they have invested a few decades of blood sweat and thought into a practice. If you are in highschool think of it like an old foot ball coach who generally knows his stuff being replaced by a young coach with less credentialls, and who does not know how to coach the team, and has not proved himself to the faculty in general.

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

every one else please don't take offence at this.

some tpeople who don't practice any martial art wonder why we get so defensive all of the time.

 

[IMAA]

Okay this may be long but I think it may shed light on the Karate negative Exposure.

For someone to say Karate does not work for them or would not work for them, is fine. To me thats your own opinion.

I however have been in the Martial Arts for 17yrs. In that time I have studied booku different systems of martial arts. Some I've had to travel to learn, others I have not. A short list is this:
American Karate-do
Chungdokwan TKD
JunFan Gung FU / JKDconcepts
Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Inayan Eskrima, Arnis De Mano
Mande Muda Pencak Silat, various other Silat systems...
Aikijujutsu, BJJ, Savate, Muay Thai, Russian Systema, Wrestling, WesternBoxing, RyuKyuKempo Karate, Small Circle JuJitsu, Hapkido, Shen Chuan, Burmese Bando, Wing Chun.

Now not all these systems have I got rank or instruction in but I have enough exposure to them that I understand those arts. I Have rank or instructorship in at least 4 of those systems stated.

Now out of all those my primary study is American Karate-do, WHY? Because once you find good instruction or a good teacher no matter what all these arts have to offer ONE good art w/ ONE good teacher will take you to the same limit or same place ALL THESE are going anyway. Some may take you there quicker, some may take you on a different path. But in the end your going to gain the same knowledge that each system is based on.

Example: Last night in class I was talking w/ an 7th dan in Shorin Ryu Karate do he travels twice a month to Peoria ILL. to train w/ Grang Master Phillip Koeppell Now this guy Mstr. Vichiolli (V) for short we sat around and talked about kata bunkai and weapons and so on......now he must have at least 20 yrs experience on me in the arts...but our knowledge is at about the same point in standing to a degree. However he is a Traditional Karate practicioner, and someone I hold in High Regaurds, his knowledge is great his skill i great... He and I and several other Black belts were standing around and as I started to notice we were the only 2 discussing things and understanding points being made. All the other black belts in the roomwere just seeming to be kinda standing back takng it all in as if they had'nt a clue. By the way im only a 3rd dan, but thats by my choice I stopped in Karate for several years to endevour in other arts...
But my point is, thru Just Karate he has gained the wisdom and ability and understanding that I have gained. Its just taken him longer. But Karate does offer it, you have to seek it and be willing to learn... Now I admit alot of Karate teachers are Limited to knowledge. Some because thier instructors either refused to teach what they knew or just didnt know. But this day and age learning is how bad you want it. Karate isnt to be learnt in a year, or two.... hell not in 10 -20 yrs. You dont start to really learn and understand what your doing till you've completed the basic course and earned your black belt anyway... People get caught up in wantingthat belt Tomrrow.... Karate or Martial Arts in general is a "WAY OF LIFE", a Life time of mastery. " ROME WASNT BUILT IN A DAY PEOPLE". Karate will get you there if you seek it out properly. And the knoweldege you gain will take a lifetime to complete. IT does not matter what discipline you find it in....

W/ the Differnt fist strengths or punching styles, each system has tried to develop something over the many years to seem that thier style is more convienient. I have been trained in them all....and have fought alot boxing, street fighting.... and to be honest the best fist that I use is the common BACK TO BASIC fist I learnt in Karate thumb overlapping the two forefingers. Of course the 3/4 turn of thewrist makes a grreat load of sense and I agree w/ it, but learn it and use it if its your thing....dont try to promote it as the best and only way. I often refer back to the fist I learnt in Jun Fan a tight fist w/ my thumb placed on the side of my index finger and punching in a "straightlead" or straight fist, bottom 3 knuckles. In Karate they teach never to hit with those knuckles but BRUCE LEE said " Hitt w/ the bottom 3 knuckles" I have used that in a real fight and it worked just fine....honesty pobably my favorite way to punch. But its not the ONLY way I do punch...... I know all the 5 animal strength fists and if ever a time needed I had to use one Im sure I would.....learning all the different techniques and practicing them and honing them is the key to learning martial arts.....so you do what works and becomes 2nd nature in time of need....Simplicity, Directness, NON-TELEGRAPHIC Movements is the key to fghting...Kata is a wonderful learning tool.....It teaches us to hone our techniques, it teaches to find tech's in Bunkai it teaches us to examin our tech's and find out what works where and with what.... each movement in kata could have endless definetion behind it, but its up to us to find these. . I used to hate kata going thru the ranks, but when I started learing thru the RyuKyu System D.K.I. Dillman and his followers, It opened my mind to kata and a rebirthing and new found interest of Kata is there now....I was always given the lamest excuses as to what Kata represeted....and I later found out it was so muchmore than that....

So I appologize for the lengthy post....but I after going thru all 7 pages of this topic I felt I had alot to get off my chest w/ this.... and I know after I post it, I'll say "Dang" I should of mentioned this, or that......but in the mean time...this is the just of it...

Selamat
:asian:

 

[LB_Karateka]

i don't usually get involved in the threads, but i had to say that was very well stated.