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cdhall
Master Black Belt
I was at a seminar by Ed Parker, Jr. when this topic was addressed by him. He said that Mr. Parker himself, although using a "Horizontal fist" would often either not curl his index finger or not curl any of his fingers toward his palm.
I think he said this was because of the beneficial effect of not redirecting harmful engergy back into his body via his palm by letting it "escape" through the tip of the index finger. At any rate it had something to do with not making a loop for energy to return to him upon impact.
I had never heard this before and I may have the reasoning behind it wrong. Mr. Parker Jr. also spoke well of Mr. Dillman so perhaps Mr. Dillman addresses this topic as well.
:asian:
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Horse Pucky. Harmful energy my butt.
I am not trying to insult any one here so please don't think I am but Westerners tend to really get caught up in the "magical mystical ki world".
If there is one kind of martial artist that really chaps my butt it's the "granola munching ki freaks".
The reason for that finger position is simple bio mechanics.......no "airy fairy" ki stuff just simple mechanics.
When I lived in China I never ran into an martial artists that were as goofy about ki as most western "ki experts" are.
I saw some pretty amazing demonstrations of ki too, but most of the "fighting techniques" were never explained like I have heard Dillman and others rattle on about.
All the "color by numbers kyusho" (stomach 9, gallbladder 13, etc) gimme a break. They have kyusho in China, and they have some people that are frightfully good at it too.
However, Dillman's knowledge of ki and kyusho you could fit under your finger nail. I have heard of too many folks that went to his seminars and said he couldn't produce "the goods". He talked a lot but couldn't deliver unless the guy was stone cold still waiting to be whacked. I suggest if you ever have the chance to go to China by all means go by the Beijing University of Chinese Medicine and sit in on a lecture/practicum (sometimes they are in foreign languages).............they will knock your socks off my friend. Then when you get back to the west and hear the "ki freaks" go on about this and that you will know what I mean.
I
islandtime
Guest
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Those books were probably written by one of those "my stuff is the best stuff" people that we all love
Gene Gabel:asian:
G
GouRonin
Guest
You can stick whatever you want in your butt I suppose, but I have had this conversation with Parker as well. Perhaps harmful energy is a bad use of words then. I am not a big believer in "chi energy" and such and I think that if you look at the vast majority of my posts you'll see that.
What Ed is talking about is more mechanical in nature. Imagine the arm being like a whip. As the kinetic energy moves down the arm and transfers to smaller parts of the arm (whip) it becomes increased as it strikes. Wherever the kinetic energy from the "wave source" finishes is where the transfer of power begins. The smaller the point the more damage, albiet smaller in sphere, as well.
Kinetic energy, potential energy, energy waves. All of these are scientific in nature. They are proven mathmatically, and empirically and accepted. The problem arises when people start to interchange the word "energy" in both the mystical chi and the scientific form.
So While I agree pretty much with the horse pucky comment about internal energies (chi) etc and would put forth that what Ed was talking about is more scientific in nature than was described. Perhaps better wording in the future might help.
Now if you don't believe in kinetic energy and such, well, then there is not point in even discussing this because then you don't believe in martial arts then.
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RyuShiKan
Guest
I have that book and looked it up. On page 105 there are photos of Nagamine doing Fukyugata kata, and on page 136 there are again only photos of him doing Pinan Yondan, just photos nothing more. The page you were wanting was 116, the date listed is also wrong. The Pinan kata were composed prior to 1907. Itosu introduced karate to the Shuri Jinjo Elementary School in April 1901 as part of the physical training program. The Pinan kata were introduced to Primary School children as a "martial exercise" with only the most basic aspects taught because it was considered too dangerous to teach them actually fighting application. In 1905 he became the karate teacher at the Prefecture Dai Ichi College and Prefecture Teachers Training College.
C
Chiduce
Guest
You are right about the pages; they are 104 and 116. I misprinted this information. The text said 1907. I would like to get your source for the Pinan Kata info though? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
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RyuShiKan
Guest
Most of the MA books out there have that information.
V
vin2k0
Guest
Why do all the fancy stuff when you can perform a simpler technique that is just as effective? And if anything it will be applied quicker because it is simpler...
Martin h
Green Belt
Which leads to the karate position that was "The japanese naturaly regard it as taking a decadente chinese art and remove away all the unwanted decorations, striping it down to what is actualy useful."
Both sides may have a point, but that is the positions they regard each other from.
I tend to agree with you, simpler is almost always better. But then I am a karate practicioner aswell.
Y
yilisifu
Guest
It should be borne in mind that what is referred to as "wushu" nowadays is also known as "contemporary wushu" and is a combination of gymnastics and martial arts. Even the Chinese themselves will tell you that it is not (and never was) intended for use in fighting.
Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....
Real Chinese martial arts (often called "traditional wushu") are quite different. Some are very straightforward, using simple, non-flowery techniques.....
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RyuShiKan
Guest
Good example...........Bagua.......an absolutely brutal martial!
No muss, no fuss just nice "suck floor" defensive applications.
Y
yilisifu
Guest
I think most systems tend to emphasize one primary way of punching, even if they actually utilize several.....
I, too, have seen (and heard) derogatory remarks regarding karate made by practicioners of Chinese and other martial arts. A well-known kung-fu practicioner of the day once remarked something about that and I asked him, "Have you ever fought someone in that art?" He simply frowned and walked away.
Some time later, he was preparing to enter tournament competition and I warned him that he simply wasn't adquately prepared. He shrugged it off and he and his students went to the tournament, confident that their kung-fu skill would carry the day.
They were lucky to survive. The teacher was knocked down repeatedly in his match. Even so, I don't think he learned from the experience. That's unfortunate.
This is not to suggest that one art is superior to another. I practice kung-fu myself. But these derogatory statements are often made by people who have little or no experience with karate...the lesson is often painful.
It brings to mind a statement made by O-Sensei Uyeshiba; "The mountain does not laugh at the stream because it is lowly, nor does the wind berate the mountain because it cannot move."
I, too, have seen (and heard) derogatory remarks regarding karate made by practicioners of Chinese and other martial arts. A well-known kung-fu practicioner of the day once remarked something about that and I asked him, "Have you ever fought someone in that art?" He simply frowned and walked away.
Some time later, he was preparing to enter tournament competition and I warned him that he simply wasn't adquately prepared. He shrugged it off and he and his students went to the tournament, confident that their kung-fu skill would carry the day.
They were lucky to survive. The teacher was knocked down repeatedly in his match. Even so, I don't think he learned from the experience. That's unfortunate.
This is not to suggest that one art is superior to another. I practice kung-fu myself. But these derogatory statements are often made by people who have little or no experience with karate...the lesson is often painful.
It brings to mind a statement made by O-Sensei Uyeshiba; "The mountain does not laugh at the stream because it is lowly, nor does the wind berate the mountain because it cannot move."
V
vin2k0
Guest
Karate is only misunderstood and/or criticised by those who have never trained the art in depth.
:armed:
:armed:
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
Grays Anatomy makes no such conclusion.
Johnathan Napalm
Black Belt
LMAO!! My feeling exactly.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
If you look at the body mechanics of the vertical, ¾ turn, and horizontal punch you will see not only the bones but also the muscles line up differently.
This is actually the reason for the different feeling of each punch.
This is actually the reason for the different feeling of each punch.
M
Mike Clarke
Guest
I have to say this.
If you look around [and you don't have to look too far], at what is being passed off for karate these days, it's no wonder it gets critisism by the bucket full.
Dosn't everyone know some one who 'is' a Black Belt ????
What was once a rare treasure, is now a cheap commodity you can 'buy' almost anywhere from almost anyone.
Mike.
If you look around [and you don't have to look too far], at what is being passed off for karate these days, it's no wonder it gets critisism by the bucket full.
Dosn't everyone know some one who 'is' a Black Belt ????
What was once a rare treasure, is now a cheap commodity you can 'buy' almost anywhere from almost anyone.
Mike.
