Counter for "bear hug"

[Gerry Seymour]

People have argued about whether wrestling single leg is better than Judo Osoto Gari (front cut), or the other way around.

Yep, it's all about the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With what is going to be high elbows and possibly even bending your own back to reach?

So basically trading all of your defensive structure on the hope that eye gouge is going to get them to just let rather than put you on your back and get some real eyegouging done.

Like with gravity and body weight.

If they have a bear hug sunk in, I'm not sure I have much defensive structure left. If the head is available (they haven't tucked it tight like a good BJJer), that's maybe my last good target. I might be able to move it and start breaking their structure, but necks are strong. If I can get to the eyes (actually, probably just one, unless they are really lazy about that head), that's probably the easiest way to get them to move the head, so I can get some structure back.

Not a great answer, but once they have it sunk in, the great answers have all passed, and I'm probably on the way to the ground.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Exactly as it is in the picture, option one: clinch, shin to groin , knee to chest or head. Maybe throw in a guillotine choke.
Option two: thumbs in eyes, push head back, shin to groin, step through and head throw or rear naked.
Option three: reach right arm around head, grab eyes, nose, ears, whiskers,turn head, go into rear naked. Add applicable strikes to taste.

That's the basics as I teach, was taught without going into freestyle improvisation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yep, it's all about the situation.

The trade off is whether you let your

- leg to do your leg job, or
- hand to do your leg job.

To use the hand to grab the leg is like to use the leg to kick the head. It's not normal. IMO, the western wrestling doesn't use leg skill as much as the Judo does.

Some people may consider single leg as a low level skill. Most people will use it before they have developed their leg skill.

 

[drop bear]

If they have a bear hug sunk in, I'm not sure I have much defensive structure left. If the head is available (they haven't tucked it tight like a good BJJer), that's maybe my last good target. I might be able to move it and start breaking their structure, but necks are strong. If I can get to the eyes (actually, probably just one, unless they are really lazy about that head), that's probably the easiest way to get them to move the head, so I can get some structure back.

Not a great answer, but once they have it sunk in, the great answers have all passed, and I'm probably on the way to the ground.

if you are on your way to the ground then that is the next opportunity to escape. As soon as you hit the deck explode out and stand back up.

And so as you fall you should start turning and preparing for the hip escape.

If your structure isnt broken. Eyegouging will break it As you are trying to mess around up there with no support.

You cannot fight without your basics in order. You dont throw your stance away to hail mary defensive moves.

I have been eyegouged a few times now. They are slow if you don't have the head secured. And you can just keep moving your head around which makes it slip off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if you are on your way to the ground then that is the next opportunity to escape. As soon as you hit the deck explode out and stand back up.

And so as you fall you should start turning and preparing for the hip escape.

If your structure isnt broken. Eyegouging will break it As you are trying to mess around up there with no support.

You cannot fight without your basics in order. You dont throw your stance away to hail mary defensive moves.

I have been eyegouged a few times now. They are slow if you don't have the head secured. And you can just keep moving your head around which makes it slip off.

Agreed. Nothing there I'd really argue with, DB. I'd probably be able to (if he's not skilled) get turned during the fall to have him take some of the impact, and get to a different escape, but the concept is the same. My point was just that if the structure is broken, there's not much to lose by adding the distraction of trying to gouge. For a lot of folks, waving their head around to avoid it would get their mind somewhere other than their grip and structure. I find a lot of folks break their own structure when they move their heads like that.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. Nothing there I'd really argue with, DB. I'd probably be able to (if he's not skilled) get turned during the fall to have him take some of the impact, and get to a different escape, but the concept is the same. My point was just that if the structure is broken, there's not much to lose by adding the distraction of trying to gouge. For a lot of folks, waving their head around to avoid it would get their mind somewhere other than their grip and structure. I find a lot of folks break their own structure when they move their heads like that.

Drill it. I bet you just get headbutted as he is flailing around defending the eyegouge.

Go thumb under the nose if you want to get a feel for it.


And I think nose comes on quicker anyway.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your opponent uses bear hug to lift you off the ground, if you can use your

- left hand to push his jaw to his left, and
- right hand to push his fore head to his right,

you may have about 20% chance there. It depends on whether your arm strength (without rooting) can take care of your opponent's neck strength or not.

In the modern gym, I cannot find any weight equipment that can help me to develop this kind of twisting power that I can use to twist my opponent's head in this situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Drill it. I bet you just get headbutted as he is flailing around defending the eyegouge.

Go thumb under the nose if you want to get a feel for it.


And I think nose comes on quicker anyway.

We may be imagining a different gouging approach. Sometimes, it’s from the other hand, around the back of the head. It starts as head control, and the gouge is an added feature. Other times, that hand may be the control hand. Or it might be the unsupported version, but that’s really an option for when nothing else presents. A head butt might happen if there’s no (or weak) head control, but I’ll take an accidental head butt to avoid being slammed. I don’t think most folks are going to just stand there with a bear hug and dodge eye gouges. They’ll either use the bear hug or be stupid enough to let go.

 

[drop bear]

We may be imagining a different gouging approach. Sometimes, it’s from the other hand, around the back of the head. It starts as head control, and the gouge is an added feature. Other times, that hand may be the control hand. Or it might be the unsupported version, but that’s really an option for when nothing else presents. A head butt might happen if there’s no (or weak) head control, but I’ll take an accidental head butt to avoid being slammed. I don’t think most folks are going to just stand there with a bear hug and dodge eye gouges. They’ll either use the bear hug or be stupid enough to let go.

Again this is not theoretical. If you think an eyegouge will pry a guy off. Try it and see what happens.

And you can jus gouge the nose if you are concerned about blinding people.

Winner gets cake or something.

And the headbutt, apart from being a bit unpleasant helps the structure of the technique because it bends you backwards and bend him forwards. So while your schoolyard tactics are doing everything you can to send you on your back. His are now helping him to break your balance.

Which is how you need to look at these sort of defenses rather than flailing and hoping.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again this is not theoretical. If you think an eyegouge will pry a guy off. Try it and see what happens.

I didn't say it would. I said most folks would probably either continue with what they were doing (use the bear hug) or be stupid and lose the grip. The latter is probably only people who haven't gotten into much before - like someone who gives up because he got punched once.

And the headbutt, apart from being a bit unpleasant helps the structure of the technique because it bends you backwards and bend him forwards. So while your schoolyard tactics are doing everything you can to send you on your back. His are now helping him to break your balance.

Which is how you need to look at these sort of defenses rather than flailing and hoping.

You seem convinced this is something you want it to be, so you can knock it down. As I pointed out, the most common scenarios I'd expect eye gouging to show up (from me) are when controlling the head, and the eye ends up in the right place (under a finger/thumb). Anything other than that, it's just a desperation move when I can't find anything else - under those circumstances, it's hard to make the situation worse.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't say it would. I said most folks would probably either continue with what they were doing (use the bear hug) or be stupid and lose the grip. The latter is probably only people who haven't gotten into much before - like someone who gives up because he got punched once.



You seem convinced this is something you want it to be, so you can knock it down. As I pointed out, the most common scenarios I'd expect eye gouging to show up (from me) are when controlling the head, and the eye ends up in the right place (under a finger/thumb). Anything other than that, it's just a desperation move when I can't find anything else - under those circumstances, it's hard to make the situation worse.

So you are stuck defending a situation that you have not even drilled let alone ever done.

See I have done it. Drilled it, and have had guys eye gouge me in fights.

Now I don't expect you to just take my word for it. You can just test this for yourself and see what happens.

But instead of finding out for yourself you are relying on stories of what a reasonable would do and how it should play out.

Don't expect common scenarios. Don't presume when you don't have to. Seriously stop basing self defence on a bunch of what is self deception.

Do it. Find out. If you can peel a guy off with an eye gouge. Fine. At least you will know.

But this has become two virgins trying to be experts on sex.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you are stuck defending a situation that you have not even drilled let alone ever done.

See I have done it. Drilled it, and have had guys eye gouge me in fights.

Now I don't expect you to just take my word for it. You can just test this for yourself and see what happens.

But instead of finding out for yourself you are relying on stories of what a reasonable would do and how it should play out.

Don't expect common scenarios. Don't presume when you don't have to. Seriously stop basing self defence on a bunch of what is self deception.

Do it. Find out. If you can peel a guy off with an eye gouge. Fine. At least you will know.

But this has become two virgins trying to be experts on sex.

Where do you even get this ****, DB? I have drilled it, rather a lot. That's why I don't go for an eye gouge straight off - I don't like it as a go-to option.

You're making up stories to fit your pre-drawn conclusions. You're better than that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have drilled it, rather a lot.

Have you ever poked your finger into an eye of cow, pig, sheep, or ... To take out an eyeball with your finger is not a pleasant training experience.

In the army, there are 2 kind of soldiers. Those who has killed and those who hasn't. IMO, you can't call yourself a real soldier if you have not kill any enemy.

If you have not

- knocked down anybody, you can't call yourself a striker.
- taken down anybody, you can't call yourself a wrestler.
- poked anybody's eye ball out, you cannot call yourself an "eye poker".

You just can't call yourself an "eye poker" if you don't have a jar like this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you ever poke your finger into an eye of cow, pig, sheep, or ... To take out an eyeball with your finger is not a pleasant training experience.

In the army, there are 2 kind of soldiers. Those who has killed and those who hasn't. IMO, you can't call yourself a real soldier if you have not kill any enemy.

Nope. I've never really been around dead animals to try it on. I don't usually think of an eye gouge as an attempt to remove the eye - just a distraction or a way to get someone to move their head. If it's serious enough and I get my fingers in there, then I'd find out. But I have other weapons I'd be more likely to use in most situations.

 

[drop bear]

Where do you even get this ****, DB? I have drilled it, rather a lot. That's why I don't go for an eye gouge straight off - I don't like it as a go-to option.

You're making up stories to fit your pre-drawn conclusions. You're better than that.

So at what point do you just stop fighting to regain your structure and start jabbing people in the eye?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So at what point do you just stop fighting to regain your structure and start jabbing people in the eye?

I never said I'd stop fighting for structure. I don't see that as necessarily in opposition. If his head is under my chin or in my face, getting him to move it might buy room for structure. And, of course, if I couldn't find anything that seemed effective in the moment I probably have before he gets ready to slam or whatever (remember, if it's sunk in, I don't have much time before he actually uses that bear hug hold to do something to me), I might resort to poking at the eyes and nose to try to change up the situation. I thought the word "desperation" made that part pretty clear.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think this would be more difficult for me because how the attackers back is positioned, which is giving him some distance so my legs can't get around his, also his hips are too far away to exploit. Then the fact both his hands are interlocked behind my back also gives me a lot of trouble.

Normally when a bear hug is attempted I can get some shoulder control and go for a seoi nage or osoto gari (sorry if butchered the spelling) before they get their arms interlocked like that. This really made me question how I should handle this, that's when I found this.

Let's be honest, I won't always be quick enough to get the control I need, this will help me incase that happens.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this would be more difficult for me because how the attackers back is positioned, which is giving him some distance so my legs can't get around his, also his hips are too far away to exploit. Then the fact both his hands are interlocked behind my back also gives me a lot of trouble.

Normally when a bear hug is attempted I can get some shoulder control and go for a seoi nage or osoto gari (sorry if butchered the spelling) before they get their arms interlocked like that. This really made me question how I should handle this, that's when I found this.

Let's be honest, I won't always be quick enough to get the control I need, this will help me incase that happens.

I’ve been trying to decide which NGA technique has the closest mechanics. I think our Low Bridge is closest, though I could easily change that lateral throw to a Groin Block.

You mentioned seoi nage- that throw has some similarities to a drop seoi nage.

 

[JR 137]

I think this would be more difficult for me because how the attackers back is positioned, which is giving him some distance so my legs can't get around his, also his hips are too far away to exploit. Then the fact both his hands are interlocked behind my back also gives me a lot of trouble.

Normally when a bear hug is attempted I can get some shoulder control and go for a seoi nage or osoto gari (sorry if butchered the spelling) before they get their arms interlocked like that. This really made me question how I should handle this, that's when I found this.

Let's be honest, I won't always be quick enough to get the control I need, this will help me incase that happens.

See my post at the bottom of the first page