Bear Hugs - Practical or Impractical

[hardheadjarhead]

I guess before I chime in here.. I have a question. I understand what you mean by the "aggessive" bearhug. but, are we talking about a grab, then being thrown downward towards your shoulder?

Sure. Or he's picking you up and moving you. Or whatever. You anticipate how it might come off, and train it accordingly with increasing force and non-compliance on the part of the attacker.

Just for the record, I dropped a guy with a double ear box and he fell to the ground crying and clutching the sides of his head. He was a "noncompliant opponent."

And I hit a guy with one, brusing his left eardrum and breaking his right one. It angered him greatly...and that was about it. He was a musician, and was very, very upset.

I felt just terrible. Really. I did.

I submit to you that eye gouges are vastly overrated. Not useless, just not the panacea they're advertised as.

Stating it is "vastly overrated" might be vastly underrating a technique that will, if pulled off, cause instant shock and incapacitation. It requires no significant strength and can be done by a small woman against a very large man.

There is a reason these shots are not allowed in the UFC and elsewhere. It causes permanent disfiguring and incapacitating damage and excruciating pain. You pull it off and your opponent is pretty much done for the day. I supose he could do an "eyelid block" or a "power blink" or something.

Let me know if anyone perfects those counters.


Regards,


Steve

 

[hedgehogey]

Stating it is "vastly overrated" might be vastly underrating a technique that will, if pulled off, cause instant shock and incapacitation. It requires no significant strength and can be done by a small woman against a very large man.

I'm not saying it's useless. What I am saying is:

1: It's not useful from an inferior position, like under mount or attacked from behind. See the challenge match videos on bullshido

2: It's not useful if it's trained only on a compliant partner.

There is a reason these shots are not allowed in the UFC and elsewhere. It causes permanent disfiguring and incapacitating damage and excruciating pain.

There are vale tudo events that allow these shots. There are vale tudo events that allow everything. They look like other vale tudo.
And it's all legal in the gracie challenge. In fact there's one match where rorion faces off against a "modern hapkido" instructor who states before hand that he'd just gouge rorion's eyes. Rorion chokes him out. Thrice.


You pull it off and your opponent is pretty much done for the day. I supose he could do an "eyelid block" or a "power blink" or something.

Let me know if anyone perfects those counters.


Regards,


Steve[/QUOTE]

 

[hardheadjarhead]

1: It's not useful from an inferior position, like under mount or attacked from behind. See the challenge match videos on bullshido.

This is a self defense thread. It isn't a "challenge match" thread. We're not talking about Rorion Gracie versus a "Modern Hapkido Instructor" or a Vale Tudo event.

I don't know how YOU plan for self defense...or who you plan on teaching.

I'm teaching soccer moms and college students who major in music. I'm teaching teenage girls. I'm teaching grandmothers with arthritis. I'm not training them to fight Rorion Gracie, Tank Abbott or an MMA fighter. They're not going to be bearhugged and suplexed and mounted and then submitted with a "juji".

And I disagree... eye gouges can be effective from inferior positions. One can work them into an attack from behind (by turning into the attacker). One can apply them when mounted and from bottom side control and from bottom while held in a kesa. Maybe one can't do them to Rorion or to Erik Paulson...but that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. These aren't going to be the guys attacking the average martial art student.

2: It's not useful if it's trained only on a compliant partner.

If you check my original post, you'll see I agree with that concept. During an installation phase your partner is compliant...you upscale the intensity after that. At some point it has to be contested.


Regards,


Steve

 

[MJS]

Tank sucks. He has never fought a top guy and won. All his wins have been against guys who know little to nothing about MMA. When put up against a skilled grappler in his weight class, he lost in 45 seconds.

Well, we all have our opinions right. I never said that he was the best fighter out there, but simply that regardless of win/lose, he still pounded away at the majority of the guys hes fought. In addition, we were not talking about his UFC matches, we were using him as a comparison to a street brawler compared to your average martial artist.

Your attacker might be adding different variations but it can still be static. The difference between static and alive is wether the attacker is attacking you full force or not.

Well, I would think that if someone was attacking you, that it would be with force. The difference that we're using here with static vs. alive is if your 'attacker' is just standing there while you hit him 10 times, or if hes giving you the resistance that you'll most likely find on the street!!!

Will it really? When grabbed from behind? I submit to you that eye gouges are vastly overrated. Not useless, just not the panacea they're advertised as.

Have you ever been poked in the eye?? Have you ever had something in your eye like an eyelash or sand?? I have and I can assure you that an eye jab does have an effect and is not as over rated as you think.

And *this* I have never seen work on a noncompliant opponent.

Like the eye jab, a hit to the ear will get some results.

Mike

 

[hedgehogey]

This is a self defense thread. It isn't a "challenge match" thread. We're not talking about Rorion Gracie versus a "Modern Hapkido Instructor" or a Vale Tudo event.

Right, but i'm trying to cite examples of the the technique's attempted use. We can trade anecdotal stories all night, but that won't get us anywhere. Sure Rorion is a lot more skilled than the average man, but then again, so was the guy he fought.

I don't know how YOU plan for self defense...or who you plan on teaching.

I'm teaching soccer moms and college students who major in music. I'm teaching teenage girls. I'm teaching grandmothers with arthritis. I'm not training them to fight Rorion Gracie, Tank Abbott or an MMA fighter. They're not going to be bearhugged and suplexed and mounted and then submitted with a "juji".

Yes. However if you can survive that then you can survive an untrained bearhug.

And I disagree... eye gouges can be effective from inferior positions. One can work them into an attack from behind (by turning into the attacker).

By which point he's no longer behind you, is he?

One can apply them when mounted and from bottom side control and from bottom while held in a kesa. Maybe one can't do them to Rorion or to Erik Paulson...but that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. These aren't going to be the guys attacking the average martial art student.

Look, I get your point. But the only imperical evidence we have of these techniques being attempted is challenge matches and vale tudo events, so that's what i'm going by, unless you have footage of attempted rapes.

If you check my original post, you'll see I agree with that concept. During an installation phase your partner is compliant...you upscale the intensity after that. At some point it has to be contested.

Yes. I prefer about fifteen minutes after the technique has been introduced.

 

[hedgehogey]

Well, we all have our opinions right. I never said that he was the best fighter out there, but simply that regardless of win/lose, he still pounded away at the majority of the guys hes fought. In addition, we were not talking about his UFC matches, we were using him as a comparison to a street brawler compared to your average martial artist.

In that case we can conclude that your average "street brawler" sucks.

Well, I would think that if someone was attacking you, that it would be with force. The difference that we're using here with static vs. alive is if your 'attacker' is just standing there while you hit him 10 times, or if hes giving you the resistance that you'll most likely find on the street!!!

Exactly.

Have you ever been poked in the eye?? Have you ever had something in your eye like an eyelash or sand?? I have and I can assure you that an eye jab does have an effect and is not as over rated as you think.

Yes. Yes.

Like the eye jab, a hit to the ear will get some results.

Mike

We don't really have any evidence for that either way. STRIKING the ear area surely isn't bad but I doubt the effectiveness of the ear drum cup smack thing.

 

[Zoran]

I find it interesting that people always start arguing the merits of a one strike, or the merits of training one way compared to another. One should never train only one way nor should they defend themselves with one strike.

Would you go to a gun fight with one bullet? Of course not, nor would I only rely on an eye poke, ear box, or what ever else alone.

What it comes down to, is static training is a good way to learn a new technique as well as it's good for beginners to get their foundation. What should eventually follow is passive resistance - resistance - to an opponent that is actively aggressive.

It's my educated opinion. Agreeing with me is optional.:deadhorse

 

[Sigung86]

Some of this discussion shows how limited training is for some folks. No offense intended. I admit to coming from a pretty strong/strict Kenpo background. The techniques I've learned will work as advertised, if they are taken from the static posture to the "full bore" posture and worked with.

Training is only training if you don't work with it.

Dan

 

[SenseiGR]

I take it your hands are free? Grab the head with one hand, making it just about impossible for the attacker to throw you. The other hand is free to poke eyes, twist hair, etc.

 

[MJS]

In that case we can conclude that your average "street brawler" sucks.

So you're basing a judgement of ALL street fighters on Tank??? Come on man, he's just one example. Mike Tyson grew up on the streets. Would you say he sucked??

We don't really have any evidence for that either way. STRIKING the ear area surely isn't bad but I doubt the effectiveness of the ear drum cup smack thing.

Did a little search online and came up with this. Not sure where it happened, obviously not in the States, but I thought it was interesting.

A Police inspector has been ordered to pay a compensation of Rs 35,000, plus six per cent interest from the date the case was filed, to a man whose hearing he damaged with a slap.

Almost 10 years after Inspector Jaiprakash Bodhankar slapped Virar resident Jagannath Patil, the Vasai court on Friday ordered Bodhankar to pay the amount to Patil as relief for permanent damage to his left eardrum.

Patil, who actually sued for Rs 1 lakh, said he has already spent almost Rs 20,000 for treatment to his damaged ear.

Nonetheless, advocate Digambar Desai, who appeared on Patil’s behalf, said, “More than the monetary award, the compensation is a moral victory for an innocent who was a victim of khaki terrorism.”

On May 31, in 1993, Bodhankar was attached to the Thane rural police and posted at Nalla Sopara. He called Patil to the police station in connection with a complaint filed by Patil’s tenant.

Bodhankar used intimidation to try and prevent Patil from evicting the tenant. Patil said, “He began hitting me when I stood before him and identified myself. One of the slaps landed on my left ear, damaging it permanently.”

In addition, if you look at Ed Parkers book 4 from the Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, he lists parts of the body, the strikes that are best suited for those areas, and the results of such strikes.

Hitting the ears- Strikes that can be used

1-inner palm
2-heel of palm
3-back fist
4-hammer fist
5-handsword

Result or Effect

1-pain
2-headache
3-muffled hearing
4-rupture of the eardrum

Gee, sounds to me like its possible and that you can get results.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

By which point he's no longer behind you, is he?

We hold these truths to be self-evident. This was my point. The approach and the connection might be from any angle. You adapt to it and get the eye shot. In opening this thread nobody indicated that you HAD to keep your back to the perp as part of the self defense technique. You said an eye gouge doesn't work if the attacker comes from behind...sure it does. You turn into him and take that puppy out of his gourd.

If properly dessicated it makes an interesting tree ornament at Christmas. You can also hang it from your rear view mirror or give it to your daughter as a somewhat unique charm bracelet. It makes a zippy hackey sack, too.

Look, I get your point. But the only imperical evidence we have of these techniques being attempted is challenge matches and vale tudo events, so that's what i'm going by, unless you have footage of attempted rapes..

Highly trained fighters using techniques on highly trained fighters? This won't lead to us teaching the latest "rage" technique or training method? When Pedro Rizzo sidesteps a fighter and knocks him out with a beautiful right cross, we then laud its efficacy and start teaching it as a viable method of self defense for women and teens?

Those fights provide empirical data for YOU to use in your applications, perhaps. I'm taking a guess here that you're young, male, fit, and probably very much in the game...which is fine. One might ask how you got into a "self defense" situation in the first place if you are indeed in such prime condition. Perps attack those they perceive to be weak, typically.

If you want empirical data concerning sexual assault, you'll have to look elsewhere. Try talking to victims or reading accounts of attacks. There IS video footage out there of an eleven year old girl getting approached by the guy who killed and molested her...but it does little more than point out the subtle ways that predators work.

I note that the MMA section of this forum is DEAD. Wouldn't it be better to take Tank, Pedro, and Rorion over there and let them fight it out?

Yes. I prefer about fifteen minutes after the technique has been introduced.

No problem with that.

---------

Zoran, in discussing eye gouges we're discussing "a strike", not "one strike". I for one never advocate going for the one shot stop. Anything but.

I take that back...the Five Point Exploding Heart Palm. If a skinny woman can drop the great Kwai Chang with it, then I'd rely on it exclusively.

I haven't mastered it yet, though. So far I've irritated several people. I find this frustrating.

---------

MJS...the effects of an ear shot that you list...ruptured ear drum, pain, muffled hearing, and dizziness are all symptoms that were experienced by the guy whose ears I boxed. Note again that it didn't stop him. It ticked him off. He didn't drop screaming to the ground. Had he the ability I think he would have kicked my butt. He didn't have the ability so he demurred.

Note that this guy was a major Poindexter (academic, musician, dweeby) and not the austere raging sociopath that haunts our deepest nightmares.

It is not uncommon for Navy SEALS to rupture their eardrums on exit from subs at depth. They go on with the mission. It hurts. It isn't incapacitating to any degree if the person afflicted has any measure of pain tolerance. Doctors gently suck out debris and fluid, put cotton over the ear with instructions to keep it dry, prescribe over the counter pain medications such as Tylenol as treatment, and suggest follow up to an otolaryngologist.

I teach this technique, but with the noted caveats.


Regards,


Steve

 

[MJS]

Will it really? When grabbed from behind? I submit to you that eye gouges are vastly overrated. Not useless, just not the panacea they're advertised as.

Obviously, depending on how you're grabbed, that will determine your best strikes. However, regarding the eye shots, heres another quote from Parkers book 4 regarding eye shots.

suggested weapons-

1-finger thrusts (all methods)
2-various finger claws and hooks

result or effect-

1- rupture
2-infection
3-temp. or perm. loss of sight
4-poss. loss of eyeball

Again, I wouldnt say that they are over-rated.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Zoran, in discussing eye gouges we're discussing "a strike", not "one strike". I for one never advocate going for the one shot stop. Anything but.

I take that back...the Five Point Exploding Heart Palm. If a skinny woman can drop the great Kwai Chang with it, then I'd rely on it exclusively.

I haven't mastered it yet, though. So far I've irritated several people. I find this frustrating.

---------

MJS...the effects of an ear shot that you list...ruptured ear drum, pain, muffled hearing, and dizziness are all symptoms that were experienced by the guy whose ears I boxed. Note again that it didn't stop him. It ticked him off. He didn't drop screaming to the ground. Had he the ability I think he would have kicked my butt. He didn't have the ability so he demurred.

Note that this guy was a major Poindexter (academic, musician, dweeby) and not the austere raging sociopath that haunts our deepest nightmares.

Steve- You said it best above. I too, have never said that the one shot one kill method was anything more than a fantasy. If you read back a few posts, you'll see where I said that. However, regardless of if it stopped him for good, the fact of the matter is, is that is stopped him momentarily! And that is the key! Many times, those small shots are enough to give the guy something to think about.....while at the same time, you continue to strike!!! If you do that eye jab, and he reacts to it, it'll buy you time to A) run, B) continue to strike!!! Personally, I dont care how big the guy is, there is no conditioning method for the groin, eyes and ears.

It is not uncommon for Navy SEALS to rupture their eardrums on exit from subs at depth. They go on with the mission. It hurts. It isn't incapacitating to any degree if the person afflicted has any measure of pain tolerance. Doctors gently suck out debris and fluid, put cotton over the ear with instructions to keep it dry, prescribe over the counter pain medications such as Tylenol as treatment, and suggest follow up to an otolaryngologist.

Good point!! The same can be said of scuba diving too. Sure, the adrenal rush is going to play a part, but we're all human here, not Supermen. Again, its the little things that matter. We keep hearing about the UFC. OK, heres an example. Marco Ruas and Paul Varleans. Marco chopped at Pauls legs over and over, in addition to stomping on his foot. What was the result?? Paul fell like a tree due to the wearing down on his legs. Marco mounted and finished the fight. The point of this? Paul didnt fall with one shot to his leg, but started to feel the effects after a few of them. The adrenaline, I'm sure was flowing.

Mike

 

[hedgehogey]

So you're basing a judgement of ALL street fighters on Tank??? Come on man, he's just one example. Mike Tyson grew up on the streets. Would you say he sucked??

Hey, I was just replying to the guy who said that he was using tank as an example of a "street brawler".

Did a little search online and came up with this. Not sure where it happened, obviously not in the States, but I thought it was interesting.

It's certainly interesting, but it's low on details. It appears te victim was taken by surprise, we don't know if the victim was resisting, and we don't know if it was a cupped slap that caused the damage or a strike.

In addition, if you look at Ed Parkers book 4 from the Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, he lists parts of the body, the strikes that are best suited for those areas, and the results of such strikes.

Hitting the ears- Strikes that can be used

1-inner palm
2-heel of palm
3-back fist
4-hammer fist
5-handsword

Result or Effect

1-pain
2-headache
3-muffled hearing
4-rupture of the eardrum

Gee, sounds to me like its possible and that you can get results.

Mike

Honestly, I couldn't care less.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Steve- OK, heres an example. Marco Ruas and Paul Varleans. Marco chopped at Pauls legs over and over, in addition to stomping on his foot. What was the result?? Paul fell like a tree due to the wearing down on his legs. Marco mounted and finished the fight. The point of this? Paul didnt fall with one shot to his leg, but started to feel the effects after a few of them. The adrenaline, I'm sure was flowing.

Mike

That was perhaps one of the BEST fights I've ever seen.

It took around 23 kicks to that leg to drop Varlens. I think that's what I counted.


Regards,


Steve

 

[hedgehogey]

We hold these truths to be self-evident. This was my point. The approach and the connection might be from any angle. You adapt to it and get the eye shot. In opening this thread nobody indicated that you HAD to keep your back to the perp as part of the self defense technique. You said an eye gouge doesn't work if the attacker comes from behind...sure it does. You turn into him and take that puppy out of his gourd.

I meant it doesn't work if he's behind you.

Highly trained fighters using techniques on highly trained fighters? This won't lead to us teaching the latest "rage" technique or training method? When Pedro Rizzo sidesteps a fighter and knocks him out with a beautiful right cross, we then laud its efficacy and start teaching it as a viable method of self defense for women and teens?

Women are not going to have much arm strength naturally, so I wouldn't suggest boxing unless they build the upper body some.
Sidestepping, slipping, etc. however, are still the best punch defenses we know.

Those fights provide empirical data for YOU to use in your applications, perhaps. I'm taking a guess here that you're young, male, fit, and probably very much in the game...which is fine. One might ask how you got into a "self defense" situation in the first place if you are indeed in such prime condition. Perps attack those they perceive to be weak, typically.

I'm young and fit, but not naturally athletic or muscular. What little athleticism I have comes from training.
HOWEVER many times "self defense" instructors will advocate women using techniques that strong MMAists know are suicide even for someone as fit as they are!
If a 250 pound roid machine can't use a technique, a 100 pound woman certainly can't.

If you want empirical data concerning sexual assault, you'll have to look elsewhere. Try talking to victims or reading accounts of attacks. There IS video footage out there of an eleven year old girl getting approached by the guy who killed and molested her...but it does little more than point out the subtle ways that predators work.

I have, and there's a real dearth of information on succesfully used techniques. Also, memory distorts things, especially traumatic memory.

I do have a clip of a man assaulting a woman. He immediately throws her to the ground and stomps her many times.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The clip you mention of the woman being thrown to the ground and stomped...I've seen it, if its the one from Russia...I think it was Russia. It is one of the most brutal things I've ever seen. I believe he killed her. If she survived, I'd be surprised.

Not for the weak of heart, that clip.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Gaston]

Just a few photos to illustrate the Bear Hugs - Practical or Impractical question Photos from the Pancrase 10th Anniversary, August 31, 2003

By BJJ.Org Featured Contributor Susumu Nagao.
Page originally from Susumu Nagao's

(Look at the corner man in the 2nd photo)

 

[MJS]

Hey, I was just replying to the guy who said that he was using tank as an example of a "street brawler".

Yup, and I was just replying to the guy who pretty much made a blanket statement that ALL street brawlers suck. Again, the topic is not about the UFC or what fights Tank lost/won, but instead to show that he was a guy that came into the ring with no MA background and gave a beating to many fighters. Sure, he may have lost, but many of those winners, looked pretty beat to me.

It's certainly interesting, but it's low on details. It appears te victim was taken by surprise, we don't know if the victim was resisting, and we don't know if it was a cupped slap that caused the damage or a strike.

Regardless of if hes resisting, the fact remains that the slap caused damage to the ear.

Honestly, I couldn't care less.

Yeah, I figured as much.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The clip you mention of the woman being thrown to the ground and stomped...I've seen it, if its the one from Russia...I think it was Russia. It is one of the most brutal things I've ever seen. I believe he killed her. If she survived, I'd be surprised.

Not for the weak of heart, that clip.


Regards,


Steve

Yes, I have seen the same clip and I think you're right on the location. She was overwhlemed in seconds and I too would be surprised if she survived that.

Mike