Corrupted Poomsae

[Archtkd]

Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either. I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent. I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.

I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.

Thanks to you and everybody else for contributing to what I think is a very important topic and helping me understand a complex issue. I think the problem with many issues in taekwondo today have to do with students and how students interpret what the pioneers and teachers taught them. Often there's temptation for many of us to add a twist to what we are being taught, sprinkle in some history and philosophy that we might have misunderstood from a teacher who spoke limited English and then declare our faulty interpretation to be the standard created and approved and recommended by the pioneers. The master doing those forms knows exactly what he is doing and why, but I wonder what some of his students will be telling their own students about those forms in the future.

There's a very interesting article about the evolution of Ashtanga Yoga in the current issue (April) of Vanity Fair, which might be instructive for some of us taekwondoin. It's authored by Bethany McLean, a yoga practitioner, who is also a crack business journalist, who broke the Enron scandal. The article details how the late Krishna Pattabhi Jois began promoting Ashtanga Yoga as way to help the ill, weak and impoverished, and how some Westerners with hardly any training in the art turned it into something sought and pushed by the Hollywood and Wall Street elite.

 

[dancingalone]

There's a very interesting article about the evolution of Ashtanga Yoga in the current issue (April) of Vanity Fair, which might be instructive for some of us taekwondoin. It's authored by Bethany McLean, a yoga practitioner, who is also a crack business journalist, who broke the Enron scandal. The article details how the late Krishna Pattabhi Jois began promoting Ashtanga Yoga as way to help the ill, weak and impoverished, and how some Westerners with hardly any training in the art turned it into something sought and pushed by the Hollywood and Wall Street elite.

Thanks. As someone who does practice Ashtanga, I enjoyed reading the article. Here is the link to the article for anyone else interested. It's freely available to read right now:

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/04/krishna-pattanbhi-trophy-wife-ashtanga-yoga

 

[puunui]

Often there's temptation for many of us to add a twist to what we are being taught, sprinkle in some history and philosophy that we might have misunderstood from a teacher who spoke limited English and then declare our faulty interpretation to be the standard created and approved and recommended by the pioneers. The master doing those forms knows exactly what he is doing and why, but I wonder what some of his students will be telling their own students about those forms in the future.

One of the things I like about taekwondo is that in some ways, it is schizophrenic. In poomsae, I feel like we have the opportunity to set ourselves to a somewhat more rigid standard of correctness, similar to japanese karate. When we talk about standardization in taekwondo, it is generally standardization of poomsae. But in sparring, anything goes, as long as it works, so you can tailor that aspect of taekwondo to whatever you want. The proof of these changes, innovations and tweaks will be if you can win with them or not. But the freedom is definitely there to go in any direction that you want.

 

[Master Dan]

A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way
B) Forms are changed on purpose to underline a change in direction.

Part may very well be to give the KKW the one finger salute with their death grip on the art.
Or, as I have experienced it, to secure revenue and royalties.

Considering the art not being uniform at all to begin with, I don't think 'corrupted' is quiet the correct term.

I would agree with your last sentence. Many of the Pioneers origins were not with modern TKD per say our GM was 5th Dan in Tang Soo before moving over to TKD Jido Kwan. He remained loyal life long to both KKW and Jidokwan. His opinion and those of his prominent students would be that it matters little the fact that one instructor varies or you make a mistake during performing doing a varience or even a differnt block ect. what matters more is good solid basic technique executed well and beyond that INTENT meaning do you understand what your doing/application. I think Corupted is a very bad term to describe what Pioneers were teaching in INTENT. Not even KKW while trying to do away with Kwan loyalties and variations is very careful to state that the previousl pioneers were not wrong or any negative terms but KKW is trying to bring some standard of conformity with love and respect for all in every session I have been present at.

Sad to say but KKW like many of us have been far more horified by examples nation wide of practioners that lack any basic skill at all in even just the fundamentals so there is an effort to reestablish a baseline. However for those who have latched on to there is only one way of thinking of performing PoomSe are eliminating a very basic premise to all MA that things are not always what they seem or you must now unlearn what you have learned because you are ready and need to progress.

If you are really dedicated to KKW you will strive to conform to the best of your abilty to what they want in that time and space but you will also strive to have a duality in both performance and application which goes back to your Kwan or the real street application for your own personal well being and that of your students. Both are needed and those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.

The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money. If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.

 

[mastercole]

I would agree with your last sentence. Many of the Pioneers origins were not with modern TKD per say our GM was 5th Dan in Tang Soo before moving over to TKD Jido Kwan. He remained loyal life long to both KKW and Jidokwan. His opinion and those of his prominent students would be that it matters little the fact that one instructor varies or you make a mistake during performing doing a varience or even a differnt block ect. what matters more is good solid basic technique executed well and beyond that INTENT meaning do you understand what your doing/application.

Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).

When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate.

Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA. To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc.

I think Corupted is a very bad term to describe what Pioneers were teaching in INTENT. Not even KKW while trying to do away with Kwan loyalties and variations is very careful to state that the previousl pioneers were not wrong or any negative terms but KKW is trying to bring some standard of conformity with love and respect for all in every session I have been present at.

Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties." The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal. The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan. All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon. So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang.

Sad to say but KKW like many of us have been far more horified by examples nation wide of practioners that lack any basic skill at all in even just the fundamentals so there is an effort to reestablish a baseline.

I don't know what a baseline is and I have never heard that from anyone at the Kukkiwon, or the Kukkiwon Academy. However, I know what Kukkiwon is doing in this regard. Kukkiwon is making a great effort to establish the idea that Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae is performed one way, the way the Kwan leaders who created the Poomsae intended it to be performed. That is what the Kukkiwon instructor's courses are all about.

However for those who have latched on to there is only one way of thinking of performing PoomSe are eliminating a very basic premise to all MA that things are not always what they seem or you must now unlearn what you have learned because you are ready and need to progress.

The Kwan leaders who are the pioneers and by extension the Kukkiwon have latched on to the idea that there is only one way to perform Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae. I follow that idea because my teachers, teacher GM Chong Woo Lee, the most senior living Jidokwan member recommends that I follow that way.

If you are really dedicated to KKW you will strive to conform to the best of your abilty to what they want in that time and space

Everyone has the ability to conform to the Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae.

but you will also strive to have a duality in both performance and application which goes back to your Kwan

I don't know of any Kwan that would agree with this.

or the real street application for your own personal well being and that of your students.

Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.

Both are needed and those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.

Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian.

The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.

Do you have first hand personal knowledge of such things? Please, expand.

If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.

Interesting. I never heard of that. Where can I find that on the Kukkiwon website, or what masters and grandmasters told you that?

 

[Master Dan]

Master Cole
For some reason when ever there is a large post or rebutal such as yours when I would like to reply with a qoute the website just sits and cooks and then times out? So I am going to cut and paste here in an attempt to respond to your comments. First lots of miss understandings come from wrong perseption and not knowing where the person is comming from there bias or intent hopefully some of that will be corrected here and you may have answers to some questions. Some times on this forum some threads I would think would get more response and input based on its nature or position this one for example seemed a bit slow and for the most part only two people were seeming to have a discusion agreeing with each other. I am guilty at tmes possilby baiting to draw out more discusion to get deeper in the issue and heated as it may be it tends to draw additional people in that may tend to only read and not participate. My first bias would be based on having been one of the prominent students of a senior 9th Dan very well respected but also an accomplished international fighter as well as fighting in extreme combat conditions, related to Mas Oyama and in my 40 years of meeting and seeing many masters I never met a more powerful man in extreme breaking with no fakery involved we all know what that is tricks of the trade so to speak. That said when he or someone like him shares knowledge especially as being useful related to direct appllication or survival its given its proper respect. You took a great deal of time to respond in detail and I appreciate your input. I will respond in bold between your comments below.




MASTERCOLE
Re: Corrupted Poomsae

Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).
We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan. I publicly asked the GM doing the presentation if this was a mistake or politics he stated that he did not write the manual? Later the president of the KKW flew in and they made a point to pull me asside with his administrators and state that the manual had made a mistake and it was not political. A week later the coup de ta at KKW was complete and both the president and his entire staff were gone and many other changes.

When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate. When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach.

Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA. To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc. I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify. This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join.

Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties." The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal. The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan. All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon. So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang. I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now. But at the same time to not miss judge those by deducting points if the PoomSe varied if the quality of technique was correct? Obviously that has moved a bit in the last 3 years.

Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.
This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves? That is what I mean by differnt levels in doing forms. I aggree with several world authorities that everything you ever wanted related to self defense is with in all forms regardless of style and modifications have to be made in application based on individuals anatomy or abilities ( if they can't apply or make it work whats the point)
Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian.
Well your looking for a fight in the wrong direction here dropping names I was refering only to CONUS and people far removed from the Kwan Pioneers master's whos students even black belts show up at state level competions cannot do thier forms or even have basic level skills.
Originally Posted by Master DanThe real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.

I am surprised you questioned this comment? I am not refering to the Kwan Pioneers but to CONUS the mass marketing or commercialization of TKD in the US it has always been my belief that MA in general was never meant to be a business it its truest form father to son or non profit and the presure on the quality of teaching and testing has been greatly effected in the US by this.

I am talking about related to a pay per student fee basis which has presured masters and owners of Dojangs to advance students based on the need for income instead of abilty and maturity. All of this has effected the entire realm of modern TKD. We have to try to rely on computers to take over judging instead of relying on educated and fair and impartial referees.
Orignally posted by Master Dan
If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.
Interesting.

I never heard of that. Where can I find that on the Kukkiwon website, or what masters and grandmasters told you that?
It has been discussed and even put in writting my many over the past 3 years. And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life.

By the way my personal best friend and prominent student of our GM was at the 64th aniversery of Jidokwan in Korea one of only two non Koreans there was awarded 9th Dan by the president of Jidokwan out of a concern for carring on the legacy of Jidokwan in the US. If you care to PM me I will send you pictures of that gathering and his being awarded the rank.

 

[mastercole]

“Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).”

We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan. I publicly asked the GM doing the presentation if this was a mistake or politics he stated that he did not write the manual? Later the president of the KKW flew in and they made a point to pull me asside with his administrators and state that the manual had made a mistake and it was not political. A week later the coup de ta at KKW was complete and both the president and his entire staff were gone and many other changes.

There are 5 “original” Kwan. Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Chang Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan and Song Moo Kwan. There are 4 “annex” kwan. Oh Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, and Jung Do Kwan. There were over 100 spin off kwan, most of those 100 spin off kwan do not exist as functioning kwan today. The Kukkiwon President you speak of was GM LEE Seung Wan, President of Jidokwan since 1988.
I would have never asked the question you ask, it has no basis in fact, and is insulting. And to me, it is embarrassing that he took you aside to talk to you. It is equally embarrassing to me that a person from Jidokwan roots would tie Jidokwan President Lee’s resignation as Kukkiwon President to anything other than the facts of the situation.

“When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate.”

When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach.

I thought you were saying they came here for money?

“Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA. To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc.”

I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify. This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join.

Whoever taught that was making up a fairy tale. The kwan unified for standards and quality, a requirement to enter into the Korea Sports Association. The one kwan founder who left the KTA did so because he could not be the boss. His buddy from the Jidokwan, GM YON Kwai Byeong, did the same thing for the same reason. It had nothing to do with changing a style.

“Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties." The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal. The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan. All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon. So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang.”

I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now. But at the same time to not miss judge those by deducting points if the PoomSe varied if the quality of technique was correct? Obviously that has moved a bit in the last 3 years.

When the Kukkiwon says not to use kwan terms, they do so under authority of all the kwan. The kwan does not want us to use old kwan terms. And please, show me this printed information. If you can scan it and post it here, that would be great, thanks.

I was at that same Hanmadang Referee seminar. What they were telling us was that in the USA many competitors will be attending the Hanmadang FOR THE FIRST TIME. Most will not be up to date on the Kukkiwon standards for Poomsae, and we should be forgiving. That is all the meant, nothing else.

“Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.”

This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves? That is what I mean by differnt levels in doing forms. I aggree with several world authorities that everything you ever wanted related to self defense is with in all forms regardless of style and modifications have to be made in application based on individuals anatomy or abilities ( if they can't apply or make it work whats the point)

Those are your words, not the Kukkiwon’s and not mine. I have never read anywhere or ever heard anyone state that if someone was not doing the Kukkiwon Poomsae to exact standard they were less capable of defending themselves. As far as your world authorities comment, please, what are their names?

“Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian.”

Well your looking for a fight in the wrong direction here dropping names I was refering only to CONUS and people far removed from the Kwan Pioneers master's whos students even black belts show up at state level competions cannot do thier forms or even have basic level skills.

Actually this is what you wrote: “those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.” And as far as name dropping is concerned, GM Seung Wan Lee feels that I, as his student, can invoke his name at any time, feel free to ask him.

Originally Posted by Master DanThe real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.

I am surprised you questioned this comment? I am not refering to the Kwan Pioneers but to CONUS the mass marketing or commercialization of TKD in the US it has always been my belief that MA in general was never meant to be a business it its truest form father to son or non profit and the presure on the quality of teaching and testing has been greatly effected in the US by this.

I am talking about related to a pay per student fee basis which has presured masters and owners of Dojangs to advance students based on the need for income instead of abilty and maturity. All of this has effected the entire realm of modern TKD. We have to try to rely on computers to take over judging instead of relying on educated and fair and impartial referees.
Orignally posted by Master Dan
If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.
Interesting.

“I never heard of that. Where can I find that on the Kukkiwon website, or what masters and grandmasters told you that?”

It has been discussed and even put in writting my many over the past 3 years.

Not by the Kukkiwon. So it must be hearsay.

And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life.

They did not back off from you “verbally” or any other way, that is a very negative statement. You are confusing Kukkiwon Rules and Regulations for 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Category Nations, with those of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Category Nations. The U.S.A., Mexico, Greece, Morocco, China are examples of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Category Nations were one only has to hold Kukkiwon 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan in order to apply for their students Dan from Kukkiwon. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Category Nations like Korea, Puerto Rico, Turkey, Libya, and Vietnam have follow these types of rules and regulations that you mention, depending on the status of how many senior Dan holders are in that nation. It’s all in the Kukkiwon Instructors Course book and partly in the Textbook.

By the way my personal best friend and prominent student of our GM was at the 64th aniversery of Jidokwan in Korea one of only two non Koreans there was awarded 9th Dan by the president of Jidokwan out of a concern for carring on the legacy of Jidokwan in the US. If you care to PM me I will send you pictures of that gathering and his being awarded the rank.

I am sure your friend is a noble and excellent person. However, the legacy of Jidokwan is being carried on by every person who wears a v-neck uniform and practices Kukkiwon Taekwondo, it has never been charged to anyone person or group of people. In fact, when contacted by USA Taekwondoin, the Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea recommends that anyone in the USA interested in having a relationship with Taekwondo Jidokwan contact GM KIM Koang Woong of Kenosha, WI and GM Sang Chul Lee of Colorado Springs, CO.

 

[puunui]

I am guilty at tmes possilby baiting to draw out more discusion to get deeper in the issue and heated as it may be it tends to draw additional people in that may tend to only read and not participate.

That is called being a troll. But if you are going to participate in these discussions, then I would ask you to write more carefully, instead of these long rambling type posts which often times does not make sense.

My first bias would be based on having been one of the prominent students of a senior 9th Dan very well respected but also an accomplished international fighter as well as fighting in extreme combat conditions, related to Mas Oyama and in my 40 years of meeting and seeing many masters I never met a more powerful man in extreme breaking with no fakery involved we all know what that is tricks of the trade so to speak.

Are you saying that you are a "prominent student" of GM CHOI Tae Hong? What makes one a prominent student? mastercole and I have interacted with GM Choi numerous times at USTU events. Our discussions with him has left a very different impression than the one you are presenting here. In my opinion.

We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan.

What are you talking about? What eight kwan?

When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach.

What is CONUS? The continental US?

I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify.

Incorrect. Korean government funding was offered but Dr. Un Yong KIM declined, stating that taekwondo should remain independent of korean government funding.

This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join.

One kwan founder (GM HWANG Kee) did not wish to sign the kwan unity act because he was vehemently opposed to General Choi's leadership of the KTA.

I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now.

There is a unified terminology used by the Kukkiwon.

This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves?

Who said this? I know I never did. Standardized poomsae and freedom of expression in sparring are to me the um yang of taekwondo.

The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.

The real corruption in Taekwondo happened when instructors moved back to the US and began teaching their own corrupted variant of taekwondo and trying to pass that off as the same as, or better than the taekwondo practiced in Korea.

It has been discussed and even put in writting my many over the past 3 years. And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life.

I have no idea what you are talking about above.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is called being a troll. But if you are going to participate in these discussions, then I would ask you to write more carefully, instead of these long rambling type posts which often times does not make sense.

*ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.

Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.

 

[mastercole]

*ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.

Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.

You are calling robotic. Personal expression in Poomsae is encouraged, walking like a duck, doing wild looping high blocks etc, is not.

Ask any of the Poomsae Team members on MT, they can tell you better that me.

 

[puunui]

There are 5 “original” Kwan. Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Chang Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan and Song Moo Kwan. There are 4 “annex” kwan. Oh Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, and Jung Do Kwan.

Some get confused because the Jidokwan gets confused with the "Chidokwan" and Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, which are all names for the same kwan, the Jidokwan as it is called today. I don't have the Kukkiwon Instructor's Manual in from of me, but I would think that the reason why the Jidokwan wasn't listed was because the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan was listed instead, just like the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu was probably listed for the Chang Moo Kwan.

The Kukkiwon President you speak of was GM LEE Seung Wan, President of Jidokwan since 1988. I would have never asked the question you ask, it has no basis in fact, and is insulting. And to me, it is embarrassing that he took you aside to talk to you. It is equally embarrassing to me that a person from Jidokwan roots would tie Jidokwan President Lee’s resignation as Kukkiwon President to anything other than the facts of the situation.

I agree. I first met GM Lee in Hawaii back in the early 90s, we have had numerous discussions over the years, and I would never ask those kinds of questions of him, or make such nonsensical connections.

When the Kukkiwon says not to use kwan terms, they do so under authority of all the kwan. The kwan does not want us to use old kwan terms.

Exactly. And the biggest proponent of the new Kukkiwon terminology was GM LEE Chong Woo, who is the most senior Jidokwan member alive today.

I was at that same Hanmadang Referee seminar. What they were telling us was that in the USA many competitors will be attending the Hanmadang FOR THE FIRST TIME. Most will not be up to date on the Kukkiwon standards for Poomsae, and we should be forgiving. That is all the meant, nothing else.

I was there as well for that Hanmadang International Referee seminar, I won the citation at that seminar, and I agree with mastercole's recollection of what was explained to the attendees.

Actually this is what you wrote: “those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.” And as far as name dropping is concerned, GM Seung Wan Lee feels that I, as his student, can invoke his name at any time, feel free to ask him.

I believe that all the kwan jang and pioneers that we speak to want us to tell the world what their actual viewpoint and philosophies are, so there is no confusion or second guessing or making wrong inferences about their exact position on things taekwondo. They are happy that we are spreading the word, and they show that by heaping dan certificates, citations, awards of merit, certificates of appointment and other such things, not the least of which being the priceless information that they share with us, which we in turn share with the world.

 

[puunui]

*ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.

Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.

Who said there can't be individual "tweaking"? If you recall, my comment was that you can go teach whatever you want, but please don't call your individualized tweaked out version the original kukkiwon way, because it isn't. I personally try to do it the standardized way for poomsae, and leave the creative portion of my taekwondo experience to sparring, but that's just me. If you want to go do your own thing, no one is stopping you, not me anyway. And what I didn't like about shotokan was the rigidity of thought over every aspect of the art, including but not limited to technical standards which were unnatural and ultimately hurtful in the long run. And time has proven that, given the number of jka types who have knee and back issues, to the point where it makes it difficult to continue training.

 

[mastercole]

Who said there can't be individual "tweaking"? If you recall, my comment was that you can go teach whatever you want, but please don't call your individualized tweaked out version the original kukkiwon way, because it isn't. I personally try to do it the standardized way for poomsae, and leave the creative portion of my taekwondo experience to sparring, but that's just me. If you want to go do your own thing, no one is stopping you, not me anyway. And what I didn't like about shotokan was the rigidity of thought over every aspect of the art, including but not limited to technical standards which were unnatural and ultimately hurtful in the long run. And time has proven that, given the number of jka types who have knee and back issues, to the point where it makes it difficult to continue training.

That's the thing about Kukkiwon. Poomsae is the technical standard but everything else is how you like it. There is a lot of freedom.

I believe that anyone Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioner who fails to understand the correct Poomsae, does not understand Taekwondo.

 

[msmitht]

.After reading this thread I had to think about what the correct response should be.I learned mdk tkd/tsd hyung from baek, moon ku who learned them from ki, hwang. I learned itf/wtf poomsae from lee, young(san bernadino 7th dan itf/wtf at the time) and kim, jin hwan(in sii). There are so many differences between them than numbering them would be pointless unless you have a lot of free time.
The standard is the set way our kkw gms practice, teach and perform them. They put it down on paper and dvd. Any variations are the blame of poor, unproperly educated instructors and an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).

 

[Earl Weiss]

.

The standard is the set way our kkw gms practice, teach and perform them. They put it down on paper and dvd. Any variations are the blame of poor, unproperly educated instructors and an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).

My view is from the ITF / Chang Hon perspective, and it's exasctly the same.

AFAIAC just be honest about not knowing or not teaching the standard. Don't tell me how you tweak stuff, changed stuff, like to be creative etc. unless you first can show or tell me what the standard is. You can't claim to have tweaked something or are being creative with it if you don't know what the heck it was in the first place.

Maybe, just maybe ... the seniors had reasons for doing things a certain way. I have learned to do many things a certain way without understanding why initialy, and later either had the reasons explained, or reached an understanding. (OK, so I am still waiting for some stuff.)

 

[leadleg]

*ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.

Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.

WTF poomsae competition is scored as 40% technical, 60% presentation.

 

[msmitht]

WTF poomsae competition is scored as 40% technical, 60% presentation.

Really? 2 poomsae IR's just told me that they give 2 scores up to 5 adding them for a max score of 10. Wouldn't that make it 50/50?

 

[MSUTKD]

That is the old way Matt! 40/60 now.

 

[ATC]

Yep 40/60 is what it is now.

 

[puunui]

an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).

There you go again.