Outside of whatever association the rank is from, rank doesn’t really do much. I don’t get the attitude that it’s only worthwhile if it’s from an association, since anything it’s worth within an association is only because your in that association, and doesn’t reflect any real restrictions you’d experience if you weren’t in that association.
Generally speaking, associations recognize other associations. I can take my ISKF rank to SKIF, ITKF, or just about any major Shotokan association I want. Someone from an unaffiliated Shotokan dojo is going to have a much more difficult time.
Being able to transfer rank is far less an issue, in practical terms, for most students than almost anything else worth worrying about.
I think this is the point where the receiving instructor/school freezes the student's forward progression until they get up to speed and competency.
Agreed. In the two cases where there was the most discrepancy between our standard and the incoming student's ability, they were offered to either wear the previous rank until they got up to speed, or to ditch their rank and start over (with no time-in-grade requirements, since they'd already met all those). One of them simply opted to only do private lessons with me for a while (where rank wouldn't matter in any form), so he could start into full classes at the appropriate level for his rank.
"Degrees" are also increments of measure. "Degrees" may just be the rough popular translation of "dan" for lack of any better term. The literal translation I believe is "step" as in kaidan (stairway - a second semester Japanese vocabulary word). The rank is not a credential in and of itself. The recognized certificate may be.
I agree. Even within any given association the quality of belts will depend on the individual school. The best credential one can have going into a new school (within an association or otherwise) is his observable ability and knowledge in comparison with other students of his rank.
OK so you think that mentioning an average might give a student unrealistic expectations. How about mentioning a range? For instance if you were to say that it takes five to ten years to get a black belt, if that is the range at your dojo. Out of all your students who made black belt there would be a student who did it in the shortest amount of time and there would be a student who did it in the longest amount of time. Also, I don't know if you have a minimum time requirement for black belt, that somebody has to be a student at your dojo for at least an x number of years before they're eligible for the black belt. A student might ask about that.
Sure, I could give them a minimum time most likely. I try to focus them on their next task at hand however. This would be the skills that they to demonstrate proficiency in, to be able to progress.
I'm not understanding why you think that knowing a) the average time is more useful than knowing b) the minimum time (per rank) plus any attendance requirements.
Finding out how many kyu grades there are is usually quite easy to do upon visiting the dojo. Some dojos have a belt display right on the wall where all the belts are shown from white to black. If a dojo doesn't have such a display you can always ask. As for when the tests are done, that really depends on the system that the chief instructor has in place on how students go up in rank. Some instructors schedule tests regularly and some don't.
Sometimes, not all the time but sometimes, when a dojo belongs to a larger organization the art can become watered down. I've known senseis that've refused to expand their business for this very reason. You saw that with Tiger Schulmann's when it was around. And there are some independently run dojos that do become famous for having really good instruction. As for me, Im much more interested in getting good instruction than I am in getting flashy credentials from big organizations. Having good instruction is much more important for developing good skill than going to a dojo that has well recognized credentials because it belongs to a big association.
Depending on what you want out of life, you sometimes have to put up with some embarrassment.
That's true not just with car sales but with just about every kind of sales. One of the first things, if not the first thing a customer is going to think about when checking out a product or service they might want to buy is how much it will cost. A salesman will want to direct their attention away from the cost and instead focus on all the good qualities of said product or service and why it would be a good idea to buy it. I know this because I have some experience working in sales.
When somebody visits a dojo and is thinking about signing up for lessons, getting a black belt and how much time it will take, ect. is not always the first thing they want to know, or necessarily something they even want to know (unlike a customer who is looking to buy a car or whatnot.) People take up the martial arts for all different reasons and not everybody takes it up because they're interested in belts. Maybe somebody wants to lose weight and they heard that the martial arts is a great way to lose weight and get in good shape and so they're doing it for that reason and they don't care what belt they've got. People do it for all different reasons and they have all different goals and motivations.
You might be able to get a better deal if you visit all the lots, but again taking classes in martial arts is not the same thing as buying a car.
So you think you would be treated like a child if you ask about minimum time requirements?
I never said I did think knowing the average time would be more useful, it's just something a student might ask. As you point out, it would make more sense to know about minimum time requirements and attendance requirements, as well as any other requirements.
I think the point being made is that sometimes that information isn't very...informative. If I gave the expected range at my instructor's school, the answer would be 5-12 years, but you can technically manage it in just over 3.5 years. I don't know how a prospective student would make any use of that, so I used what seemed the most common number (in that it fit about 4 people): 7 years. It's a fairly meaningless number.
Um, you mentioned an 'average' several posts back. Which is quite irrelevant. It takes time to determine a reliable average. And a realistic average always has weighting. I don't think you understand the three 'M's' in graphing.
How do you assess the quality of the material being taught? If you're qualified to judge that, then why don't you have your own dojo?
If that's the only way to get it, sure. But if there are other ways, I'd rather try them first and risk embarrassment as a last resort.
Yes. You yourself have given numerous examples of this happening. I've never asked an instructor this question before, so I can't speak from experience. However, I'm taking your word for it. I'm also taking the word of posters here who've discussed the times that they themselves answered this question.
I don't see how these things are mutually exclusive. At least from what I've seen, the only things that need to remain consistent are the testable material. Outside of that, there's plenty of room for instructor's to exercise their own creativity.
Do these things not happen within associations? Do SKIF karateka not maintain the traditions handed down to them from Kanazawa Sensei or ASAI from Yokota Sensei?
That is exactly the problem. One organization says that these are the testable forms or the forms are done in style x, while another organization says that they are different. This happens when schools split over disagreements.
Exactly. I was with one of the Kwans that didn’t support unification, but left when SBD was being formed because it broke with tradition. Then a certain U.S. based TSD organization decided to change the curriculum, so we broke from them as well. So what do you do? Join with an organization that violates an oath to pass on the teachings faithfully, or continue on as an independent?
