Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[Wing Woo Gar]

Oh well lunch break is over back to the gym.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well supposedly you can learn anything from the world class experts on YouTube. Which I equate to a load of unadulterated horseshit

Over the past 15 years, I've saved tens of thousands of dollars because of YouTube. Recently, I replaced my own bathroom vanity sink. All I had to do was buy the new vanity, sink, and faucet (and other small things). It would have cost me $700 to pay someone else to do it. For car repairs, I learned how to change out water pumps, starters, rotors, you name it - because of YouTube.

The only way someone can be upset at YouTube is because it's harming their pockets.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you ever read this report from the department of education? It’s a little dated now (2004) but still very relevant, IMO. One thing to note is that when we talk about transfer of learning or of training, there is a presumed, observable performance element. What I mean is, if there’s never a point where the trainee performs the skills and tasks they are learning, there is, by definition, no transfer taking place. Examples of transfer of learning would be competition in a combat sport, surviving a street fight, applying deescalation techniques to successfully deescalate a confrontation.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ903882.pdf

I’ve been in this training and instructional design business for a long time. This was very influential to me at a high level. And intuitively, it resonates with a lot of people. For example, you’ll see a lot of the things I’ve tried to explain over the years in here. And you’ll also see a lot of things that drop bear and tony have said even though I don’t think either has any formal training in instructional design. Simply put, this just makes sense to a lot of people, and the principles are applied intuitively in many successful training programs.

I’ve used those same principles in many of the training programs I’ve helped develop over my career. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Over the past 15 years, I've saved tens of thousands of dollars because of YouTube. Recently, I replaced my own bathroom vanity sink. All I had to do was buy the new vanity, sink, and faucet (and other small things). It would have cost me $700 to pay someone else to do it. For car repairs, I learned how to change out water pumps, starters, rotors, you name it - because of YouTube.

The only way someone can be upset at YouTube is because it's harming their pockets.

Not all that glitters is gold.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Over the past 15 years, I've saved tens of thousands of dollars because of YouTube. Recently, I replaced my own bathroom vanity sink. All I had to do was buy the new vanity, sink, and faucet (and other small things). It would have cost me $700 to pay someone else to do it. For car repairs, I learned how to change out water pumps, starters, rotors, you name it - because of YouTube.

The only way someone can be upset at YouTube is because it's harming their pockets.

It’s not necessarily the best place for martial arts instruction.

 

[Steve]

It’s not necessarily the best place for martial arts instruction.

Kind of. Depends on how you look at it. Like everything, there are pros and cons. YouTube isn’t a replacement for practice and application. But a lot of the debunking and demystifying of martial arts (which I believe is a good thing) is due to YouTube and the internet at large.

It’s like kata.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Kind of. Depends on how you look at it. Like everything, there are pros and cons. YouTube isn’t a replacement for practice and application. But a lot of the debunking and demystifying of martial arts (which I believe is a good thing) is due to YouTube and the internet at large.

It’s like kata.

Like kata?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Kind of. Depends on how you look at it. Like everything, there are pros and cons. YouTube isn’t a replacement for practice and application. But a lot of the debunking and demystifying of martial arts (which I believe is a good thing) is due to YouTube and the internet at large.

It’s like kata.

Kata has its place. I don’t watch a lot of YouTube martial arts because it’s a whole lot of mediocre. There is a lot of low grade commentary and conjecture, but rarely much substance. I get that you want to expose the many Charlatans of the martial arts, but I don’t buy into your stylistic arguments Steve. I like you, but you seem invested in convincing people that traditional arts are all claptrap and bunk. I know, I know, it’s sport combat or nothing. MMA or nothing. Because study X or YouTube guy says so. Why not focus on telling us about YOUR training and what YOU do that is of quality? Do you drill? Do you spar full contact? Do you teach? Do you compete? How do you do these things? What’s your methodology? That’s what I’m interested in. I’ve already heard your reasons why you don’t value traditional arts, the part I don’t agree with is the generalizations.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Founders of major associations have published books with their whole curriculum in them. For example, Hirokazu Kanazawa's (direct student of Funakoshi and founder of SKIF) book, Black Belt Karate. I have never read it myself, but I'm positive that there's a disclaimer in there about the book not being a replacement for live instruction. But, the point is, they don't seem to mind people learning in ways other than live instruction; in fact, they themselves have contributed to people learning in other ways. It goes without saying that watching people demonstrate the movements in a video is even better than a book.

Are you going to win kata competitions by learning kata on YouTube? Of course not. But that's not what someone trying to learn karate on YouTube is there to do.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Founders of major associations have published books with their whole curriculum in them. For example, Hirokazu Kanazawa's (direct student of Funakoshi and founder of SKIF) book, Black Belt Karate. I have never read it myself, but I'm positive that there's a disclaimer in there about the book not being a replacement for live instruction. But, the point is, they don't seem to mind people learning in ways other than live instruction; in fact, they themselves have contributed to people learning in other ways. It goes without saying that watching people demonstrate the movements in a video is even better than a book.

Are you going to win kata competitions by learning kata on YouTube? Of course not. But that's not what someone trying to learn karate on YouTube is there to do.

This is correct. I've published a couple books and they do contain a statement to the effect that they are intended as a supplement to, not a replacement for, qualified instruction. YouTube is a better supplement than a book.

There are certainly things I've learned from YouTube, but none of them were "blank slate" things.
When I decided I wanted KKW rank, I spent a couple weeks learning the taeguk poomsae from YouTube. But I was by no means new to Taekwondo.
I've looked up How-To stuff for cars, but I've been wrenching on cars almost as long as I've been practicing martial arts.
We had a patient being transferred to us from a rural ER. They needed to have a Sengstaken-Blakemore tube placed to stabilize them for the GI lab. This is very rarely done. There were two of us in the ER who had done it, both about 20 years ago. And the details of the tube had changed. So we looked up an inservice video on YouTube about the new tube design. But, again, this was not "blank slate" learning.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you going to win kata competitions by learning kata on YouTube? Of course not.

To learn from YouTube is possible. But you have to have a solid foundation first. In university, you may take a class. The professor assigns you a book. You read that book and write a report at the end of that semester. The ability of self-learning is important.

I was in the beginner class in high school MA class. When my teacher taught the advance students a form, I learned that form by watching behind a tree. A year later in high school event, my teacher asked me to demonstrate that form. In other words, even by watching and learning, my form was better than those who had learned directly from teacher.

This is the form that I learned by hidden behind a tree and watched my teacher taught advance students. The only form that I didn't learn directly from my teacher. I did use this form to win Karate black belt level form competition in US.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Founders of major associations have published books with their whole curriculum in them. For example, Hirokazu Kanazawa's (direct student of Funakoshi and founder of SKIF) book, Black Belt Karate. I have never read it myself, but I'm positive that there's a disclaimer in there about the book not being a replacement for live instruction. But, the point is, they don't seem to mind people learning in ways other than live instruction; in fact, they themselves have contributed to people learning in other ways. It goes without saying that watching people demonstrate the movements in a video is even better than a book.

Are you going to win kata competitions by learning kata on YouTube? Of course not. But that's not what someone trying to learn karate on YouTube is there to do.

I’m fine with whatever people want to do in their style. YouTube is included. I don’t say one can’t learn anything there, just that it isn’t the best source for instruction in martial arts. People can survive on Mc Donald’s food but it won’t provide the best results.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To learn from YouTube is possible. But you have to have a solid foundation first. In university, you may take a class. The professor assigns you a book. You read that book and write a report at the end of that semester. The ability of self-learning is important.

I was in the beginner class in high school MA class. When my teacher taught the advance students a form, I learned that form by watching behind a tree. A year later in high school event, my teacher asked me to demonstrate that form. In other words, even by watching and learning, my form was better than those who had learned directly from teacher.

This is the form that I learned by hidden behind a tree and watched my teacher taught advance students. The only form that I didn't learn directly from my teacher. I did use this form to win Karate black belt level form competition in US.

Well done. What is the translated name of this form?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well done. What is the translated name of this form?

It's a praying mantis form - Little tiger and swallow.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's a praying mantis form - Little tiger and swallow.

Very nice, thank you.

 

[Steve]

Like kata?

Yeah, from a training standpoint, YouTube videos and Kata are very similar. YouTube videos alone, like kata, are insufficient. But if combined with practice and application, they can be beneficial.

I think what this tells me is that you don't really understand much about what I think. LOL.

Kata has its place. I don’t watch a lot of YouTube martial arts because it’s a whole lot of mediocre. There is a lot of low grade commentary and conjecture, but rarely much substance.

Same with kata. Right? Just ask people who like kata and they will be the first to tell you there is a whole lot of mediocre kata out there.

I get that you want to expose the many Charlatans of the martial arts,

Do I? I don't think so. I have opinions that I share here, but I'm not on any kind of mission to expose frauds. To be sure, I don't like charlatans. Do you?

Just on this website, we talk about martial arts. It's kind of the idea. So, why wouldn't this be a good place to talk about standards and share opinions?

but I don’t buy into your stylistic arguments Steve. I like you,

I like you, too. It's weird that you're saying it now. But okay.

but you seem invested in convincing people that traditional arts are all claptrap and bunk.

If you think that, we have a fundamental problem. I LOVE traditional martial arts. I just love them for what they really are, not for what people want them to be. I think there are so many really great reasons to train in a traditional martial art. Tons. I have a lot of friends who train in traditional martial arts and we talk about them all the time. I trained in wing chun while in high school and karate as an adult, in addition to wrestling and BJJ. I'm really sorry you think this about me, because it's just fundamentally wrong.

I know, I know, it’s sport combat or nothing.

Again, this is just not right. If anything, I'm just a fan of doing what you're learning, and being clear what that is. Combat sports are just simply the most accessible, safest, practical form of application available to people. If you aren't a cop, hit man, bodyguard, bouncer, soldier, or otherwise violent professional, then the next best thing you can do is a combat sport of some kind. Nothing teaches you everything. But ultimately, you're learning what you're doing, and conversely not learning what you're not doing. So if you aren't fighting, you aren't learning how to fight. Regardless of the rules involved.

You seem entirely preoccupied with telling me what I think and you're missing the entire point. I wish you'd relax a little and focus on what I'm actually writing, and listening to what I'm actually saying, rather than creating a caricature in your head that puts me on one team or another. I feel like I'm pretty clear what my opinions are, and will tell you if you ask.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah, from a training standpoint, YouTube videos and Kata are very similar. YouTube videos alone, like kata, are insufficient. But if combined with practice and application, they can be beneficial.

I think what this tells me is that you don't really understand much about what I think. LOL.


Same with kata. Right? Just ask people who like kata and they will be the first to tell you there is a whole lot of mediocre kata out there.


Do I? I don't think so. I have opinions that I share here, but I'm not on any kind of mission to expose frauds. To be sure, I don't like charlatans. Do you?

Just on this website, we talk about martial arts. It's kind of the idea. So, why wouldn't this be a good place to talk about standards and share opinions?


I like you, too. It's weird that you're saying it now. But okay.


If you think that, we have a fundamental problem. I LOVE traditional martial arts. I just love them for what they really are, not for what people want them to be. I think there are so many really great reasons to train in a traditional martial art. Tons. I have a lot of friends who train in traditional martial arts and we talk about them all the time. I trained in wing chun while in high school and karate as an adult, in addition to wrestling and BJJ. I'm really sorry you think this about me, because it's just fundamentally wrong.


Again, this is just not right. If anything, I'm just a fan of doing what you're learning, and being clear what that is. Combat sports are just simply the most accessible, safest, practical form of application available to people. If you aren't a cop, hit man, bodyguard, bouncer, soldier, or otherwise violent professional, then the next best thing you can do is a combat sport of some kind. Nothing teaches you everything. But ultimately, you're learning what you're doing, and conversely not learning what you're not doing. So if you aren't fighting, you aren't learning how to fight. Regardless of the rules involved.

You seem entirely preoccupied with telling me what I think and you're missing the entire point. I wish you'd relax a little and focus on what I'm actually writing, and listening to what I'm actually saying, rather than creating a caricature in your head that puts me on one team or another. I feel like I'm pretty clear what my opinions are, and will tell you if you ask.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you completely. I want to apologize to you for my incorrect assertions and convictions. I am completely relaxed, but apparently I have gotten you wrong. I DEPLORE charlatans of any stripe. I’m ambivalent about kata in general. As far as “fighting” goes, that’s a rather broad term with a lot of baggage and is as defined a term as “sex”. If you aren’t doing “sex” you arent learning sex. While that may a true statement, it isn’t very informative, nor is it all encompassing. Is sparring fighting? Is rolling fighting? It might be to somebody. This is the rub, if the terminology isn’t specific it’s difficult to read in the meaning without adding in my own definition for the word. Most misunderstandings here on MT seem to stem from this kind of semantics situation. In any case, if you feel I’ve misjudged you or made a caricature of you based on my reading comprehension, then I owe you an apology. I am sorry.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I LOVE traditional martial arts. I just love them for what they really are, not for what people want them to be.

I was thinking about this the other day. Why has the "扣 (Kou) - knee seizing" technique never been used in UFC?

- Is it not effective? I have used it on the mat over and over before.
- Is it too hard to develop? I have developed it within 6 months.

May be MMA guys just don't like anything "traditional".

 

[Steve]

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you completely. I want to apologize to you for my incorrect assertions and convictions. I am completely relaxed, but apparently I have gotten you wrong. I DEPLORE charlatans of any stripe. I’m ambivalent about kata in general. As far as “fighting” goes, that’s a rather broad term with a lot of baggage and is as defined a term as “sex”. If you aren’t doing “sex” you arent learning sex. While that may a true statement, it isn’t very informative, nor is it all encompassing. Is sparring fighting? Is rolling fighting? It might be to somebody. This is the rub, if the terminology isn’t specific it’s difficult to read in the meaning without adding in my own definition for the word. Most misunderstandings here on MT seem to stem from this kind of semantics situation. In any case, if you feel I’ve misjudged you or made a caricature of you based on my reading comprehension, then I owe you an apology. I am sorry.

Apology accepted.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Apology accepted.

Can you see how I might misunderstand your meaning and conflate that with an opinion?