Concealed Carry and Martial Arts.

[OldGhost]

I posted another thread a few days ago and a few replies down I brought up that I CC a 45 when ever I can a Sig P227 in bringing that detail up it somewhat derailed the thread. Some of the replies that were posted makes me wonder Is it looked at as taboo to Cary a pistol as a martial artist? Some question were legit questions, some were a little snarky advising just wear a vest or why have a gun since the situation I listed first the gun would not of been much help.

Anyone else CC and incorporate that in to your self defense plan, do you have an EDC pack you keep in your truck, or maybe just a few odds and ends you try to have around? I have a small pack I carry in the truck and with me to work. Honestly it's more to hold my lunch and a few cokes but I tossed in a few things to help in an emergency. Just a flash light, some rope a small stick to make a tunicate, gloves.

I would think even with martial arts a lot of people would incorporate a firearm into their plan? Maybe I'm way off.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've carried for years. I don't personally think the .45 is a good choice for a carry gun, for reasons I've covered in detail in other threads.
I drive a Corvette, so it wouldn't help me any to leave a pack in the truck...
I do have a backpack that I carry to work, but it's not a "prepper" type thing. It's got my caffeine (I'm not addicted. I can quit any time I want. When you work nights, caffeine is one of the four basic food groups...). My Surface Pro, which sits on the desk and plays a slideshow of vacation photos (better than taking Valium...) and Pandora. And my work gear (stethoscope, shears, multi-tool, etc etc etc).

 

[Kurai]

Many of the black belts at the dojo I train at ccw. it is a part of our curriculum that all black belts have, at minimum, firearm safety training. I do incorporate it into my self defense plan, with the strong hope of never needing. Kind of like insurance.

I have a small pack that I carry my tablet and bluetooth headphones in. I keep matches, first aid kit, flashlight, small folding knife, paracord, etc. Doesn't take up a ton of space. It also has a hidden holster for those rare times off body carry is warranted. Like a doctor's appointment.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In IRT it is looked at in a very positive way and most of the practitioner's studying with me concealed carry. I personally carry besides my firearm a folding knife and a flashlight. Cars are fitted with emergency equipment and first aid. Bug out bags are also available.

If you are serious about personal protection skills then firearms are just one more tool you need to be familiar with and utilize!

 

[Danny T]

I carry.
Also carry bladed tools, flashlight, multi-tool, metal pen (tactical type), and a few other choice toys.
I have a day bag with first-aid supplies, hi protein snacks, extra shirt & pants extra ammo, fixed blade, and again some other choice toys.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I posted another thread a few days ago and a few replies down I brought up that I CC a 45 when ever I can a Sig P227 in bringing that detail up it somewhat derailed the thread. Some of the replies that were posted makes me wonder Is it looked at as taboo to Cary a pistol as a martial artist? Some question were legit questions, some were a little snarky advising just wear a vest or why have a gun since the situation I listed first the gun would not of been much help.

First, if I did carry a firearm, you would never see me posting anything about it online. Call it paranoia, but I don't think it's anyone's business whether or not I carry. I certainly am not a licensed carry holder, mainly because a license to carry is defacto registration and I don't care to be registered.

Second, I see nothing wrong with concealed carry, for a martial artist or for anyone else. As the old saying goes, "God made man, Colonel Colt made them equal."

Third, I believe that carrying firearms changes the dynamics of any self-defense situation. Now, you must not only defend yourself, you must defend your weapon; by which I mean you must keep it from being taken from you. If you draw or otherwise brandish it, any self-defense situation has now become a deadly force situation. If you do that, you must a) be certain that you're legally permitted to do so, or you're going to become a bad man's boyfriend in prison, and b) you must be capable of taking a human life, because you just raised the chances considerably that you'll have to do so.

Fourth, just like martial arts, carrying a weapon is worse than useless if you are not highly skilled and continue training with it. Buying a gun and chucking it in your pocket is not improving your chances of surviving a self-defense scenario. It's increasing the chances you'll shoot your dick off. Guns are not magic wands. You don't wave them around and things get better (although some have argued with me that they waved a gun around and things *did* get better, I think that's the exception rather than the rule).

My opinions on the subject are nuanced and frequently misinterpreted as being anti-gun. I'm pro-gun, so please don't misunderstand me. I'm anti-idiot, and a lot of idiots carry weapons and think they have protected themselves thereby. Armed idiots are still idiots; they're just more dangerous to everyone around them.

Anyone else CC and incorporate that in to your self defense plan, do you have an EDC pack you keep in your truck, or maybe just a few odds and ends you try to have around? I have a small pack I carry in the truck and with me to work. Honestly it's more to hold my lunch and a few cokes but I tossed in a few things to help in an emergency. Just a flash light, some rope a small stick to make a tunicate, gloves.

That brings me to another of my favorite topics. "Self defense plan." That's a good idea. I think everyone should have one. Unfortunately, I think most people do not even understand what one is.

Bug-out bags are nice. Having first-aid kits and canned food and water and so on is nice. It's all nice, and for the most part, it probably won't do any harm.

However...

Most people seem to think that a) they will somehow instantly know how to apply a tourniquet or staunch bleeding from a sucking chest wound or purify their water or read a topo map after TSHTF. Again, just like martial arts and firearms, if you do not make yourself expert in the use of those tools and practice with them, they won't be of any use to you.

I also think that most preppers or survivalists or self-defense experts and so on never seem to consider the self-defense scenarios they are MOST LIKELY to find themselves in. That is, we are far less likely to experience a nuclear detonation than we are a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, fire, mudslide, flood, or other force majeure.

So, before packing up the tourniquets, it would be a good idea to have a fire extinguisher and to know the different types of fire and extinguishers and maybe even have practiced putting out a fire with one. It would be wise to practice evacuating your own house, blindfolded, in the middle of the night, while crawling on the floor to simulate avoiding toxic smoke. It would be a good idea to have an evacuation plan with your family so that everyone knows where the rally point is, so that you don't go running back into a burning house to save a family member who has already escaped but you just don't know where they are.

It would be wise to take some weather-spotting classes offered for free from FEMA through local governments. It would be wise to actually become Red Cross certified in various life-saving skills, and to practice those skills.

It's nice to have a compass. It tells you which way magnetic north is. Close to useless unless you have a map to go with it, and have learned orienteering skills. There are clubs where you can learn such skills.

You might want to learn to reload, since once you run out of ammo, you have a nice metal stick, not a gun.

Some tell me how they will hunt for food when TSHTF, but they've never been hunting, never gutted or skinned an animal, never eaten wild game. Good luck with setting that snare if you've never done it and now have to survive based on your ability to do so. Good luck hunting when you run out of ammo, or when you spoil the meat by puncturing the wrong organ while you fiddle-faddle around inside the critter's guts.

If you really want to get your learn on, volunteer at a local veterinary clinic or shelter, where if you're lucky, you might learn to give an injection, stitch a wound, and otherwise help sick animals (all of which can be used on humans in emergencies).

Most of us who are getting older also have medical issues that we tend to forget about. Yeah, a year's worth of food in the garage, and no diabetes medication past thirty days worth. Can you pull a rotten tooth? Do you have replacement eyeglasses?

It goes on and on. TEOTWAWKI may happen someday, heck it probably will, but the chances are that none of the preppers, survivalists, martial artists, weapons stockpilers, or etc are really going to be surviving it. More importantly, your house could catch on fire (God forbid) or there could be a local flood or other weather event that puts you out of your home or turns off your power in the area for days, weeks, even months, and your bug-out bag won't be of that much use, especially if you just buy it and carry it around like a magic totem.

I would think even with martial arts a lot of people would incorporate a firearm into their plan? Maybe I'm way off.

You are correct. But depending how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, it's a whole lot more than that. Food for thought.

Personally, what *I* throw in my truck for emergencies is a good flashlight, a fire-starter, a sleeping bag, a charged (but deactivated) cell phone, and a good set of socks and boots. All of more importance to me than a firearm in most circumstances; and if someone breaks in and steals it, I won't be afraid they'll use it to kill someone. I also have a AAA membership. Best money I ever spent with regard to vehicles.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And just FYI, in my opinion, most of the preppers are fashionistas. They have endless discussions about which bug-out bag to buy, which bug-out-buggy to drive, which canned foods last the longest, and they could not stitch a wound or gut a rabbit if their lives depended on it. Poseurs, most of them. Fortunately, since they stockpile useful things, I will eat well when they fail to survive after TSHTF.

 

[Danny T]

I've stated many times and continue to do so... Self Defense is much more than fighting.
To be good at self defense requires multifaceted thought processes and skill sets. To have the proper skills requires training, practice, and mindset. Unfortunately when it comes to self defense and security it is mostly false. It is more of a sense, a feeling of being safe. Feel unsafe, take a 2 hour self-defense fight back course, purchase a weapon, and feel good about your safety. False, false, false.
And then there are some of us who actually train and practice. Not just in the gym but outside in different environments with other experts who have different skills sets.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And just FYI, in my opinion, most of the preppers are fashionistas. They have endless discussions about which bug-out bag to buy, which bug-out-buggy to drive, which canned foods last the longest, and they could not stitch a wound or gut a rabbit if their lives depended on it. Poseurs, most of them. Fortunately, since they stockpile useful things, I will eat well when they fail to survive after TSHTF.

I think you're right. When the Zombie Apocalypse comes, I will be able to barter medical care for food.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think you're right. When the Zombie Apocalypse comes, I will be able to barter medical care for food.

One of the few true post-apocalyptic skills that makes one truly valuable. A good dentist will also do well post-TEOTWAWKI.

 

[Blindside]

Conservatively I would say that half of my adult class carries on a regular basis. Kali tends to skew toward a certain demographic, and lets face it we are training with other weapons every day.

I lived in Wyoming for 10 years, and each of our cars have "blizzard packs" which let you deal with the "oh crap, I just went off the side of the road and it may be three days before the snow stops flying enough for someone else to drive down this road."

 

[GiYu - Todd]

Is it looked at as taboo to Cary a pistol as a martial artist?

Most of the adult students in our school have CCW permits. We conduct various scenario-based combat shooting classes throughout the year. I look at CC as giving yourself an extra option for those situations where MA is insufficient. But like MA, it's best if you keep yourself proficient and practiced.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

I personally carry besides my firearm a folding knife and a flashlight.

I always have either a knife or sidearm on me... but usually not both. I was told of a case a couple decades ago of a guy who shot a knife-wielding attacker, but a jury later second-guessed his escalation since he also had a knife and "could have just used that instead". Of course most of us know how idiodic it would be to choose a knife-fight, but a safe, comfortable jury protected by an armed bailiff may disagree.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I always have either a knife or sidearm on me... but usually not both. I was told of a case a couple decades ago of a guy who shot a knife-wielding attacker, but a jury later second-guessed his escalation since he also had a knife and "could have just used that instead". Of course most of us know how idiodic it would be to choose a knife-fight, but a safe, comfortable jury protected by an armed bailiff may disagree.

I would have to see the cite to that case before I would believe it. Sounds like an apocryphal tale to me.

If one has the legal authority to respond to an attack with deadly force, then they have the right. What instrument they choose to respond with is not important. Juries can certainly be composed of stupid people of the "why didn't he just shoot the gun out of the bad man's hand instead of double-tapping him in the head," but any defense attorney with a pulse should be all over that.

My suggestion is that people who choose to go about armed should carefully review the actual laws on self-defense, including those on the use of deadly force, in the jurisdictions where they live and work. If there are questions remaining, that's when it is time to spend a couple bucks to consult an actual attorney.

Michigan Legislature - Section 780.972

Here is an example of the law on deadly force where I live (Michigan):
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

Sec. 2.

(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

Notice is says nothing about the choice of weapon involved. Deadly force is deadly force.

Michigan concealed carry law specifies 'pistols', which would seem to preclude carrying concealed knives. However, although it is still a bit of a gray area as I understand it, Michigan law does permit the carrying of concealed "hunting knives" so long as there is "no unlawful intent." Again, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

So at least in Michigan, again in my opinion only, if I were to have to resort to deadly force to defend myself, whether I drew a pistol or a knife would make no difference to the law; in fact, I could club them to death with a mackerel I guess. I'd be very surprised to find that a jury had found someone guilty of using the more deadly of several choices when they were legally allowed to defend themselves with deadly force.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

Great info, Bill... thanks.

As for the jury story, it's similar to many complaints against LEOs for shooting a knife-wielding subject. Armchair quarterbacks saying they should have just disarmed/sprayed/tasered, rather than shot.

Michigan concealed carry law specifies 'pistols', which would seem to preclude carrying concealed knives. However, although it is still a bit of a gray area as I understand it, Michigan law does permit the carrying of concealed "hunting knives" so long as there is "no unlawful intent." .

Here's a website I've used in the past that provides some info on state knife laws. US Knife Laws

I'm still trying to find out if there's someplace I could legally carry my sword.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Great info, Bill... thanks.

As for the jury story, it's similar to many complaints against LEOs for shooting a knife-wielding subject. Armchair quarterbacks saying they should have just disarmed/sprayed/tasered, rather than shot.

Here's a website I've used in the past that provides some info on state knife laws. US Knife Laws

I'm still trying to find out if there's someplace I could legally carry my sword.

I use that site also. However, one must always realize that such sources are only as good as the people who compiled the laws; at least they do cite the law in question. However, armed with the statute number, it's a good idea to do one's own search of the actual state archives in question; most of them are online and current, which is important. Get your information straight from the source, as it were.

I'm glad you do your research! Sadly, most people seem to rely on what they heard someone else tell some third party about a cousin's brother in law.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

I use that site also. However, one must always realize that such sources are only as good as the people who compiled the laws; at least they do cite the law in question. However, armed with the statute number, it's a good idea to do one's own search of the actual state archives in question; most of them are online and current, which is important. Get your information straight from the source, as it were.

I agree. Also the laws can/do change, complicating things. At least a site like this is better than guessing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I always have either a knife or sidearm on me... but usually not both. I was told of a case a couple decades ago of a guy who shot a knife-wielding attacker, but a jury later second-guessed his escalation since he also had a knife and "could have just used that instead". Of course most of us know how idiodic it would be to choose a knife-fight, but a safe, comfortable jury protected by an armed bailiff may disagree.

I agree completely with Bill. This is almost certainly urban myth. I do not believe any court in the US has ever required a fair fight when your life is in danger. It doesn't matter if you kill them with your hands, a knife, a pistol, a shotgun or by pushing them off the roof. All that matters is that the situation warranted a lethal response.

The Colorado "Make My Day" law can be found here.
A copy of the remainder of our self defense laws can be found here.

As you can see, there is clearly no requirement for a fair fight.

The bulk of our firearms and weapons laws can be found here.

I have not done an exhaustive read of all the laws, but in the statutes I have read, there is never any requirement for a fair fight.

Knives are a somewhat gray area, in that the law here says things like 'automatic knives are illegal except for police, EMS and those with a permit', even though the only permit issued is a concealed handgun permit.
I've talked to a number of police officers about this, and the consensus has been 'if you can carry a gun, why would we care what kind of knife you carry?"
I feel comfortable carrying my Benchmade Autostriker, because I have a CHP and because of my connection with EMS.

 

[DaveB]

I posted another thread a few days ago and a few replies down I brought up that I CC a 45 when ever I can a Sig P227 in bringing that detail up it somewhat derailed the thread. Some of the replies that were posted makes me wonder Is it looked at as taboo to Cary a pistol as a martial artist? Some question were legit questions, some were a little snarky advising just wear a vest or why have a gun since the situation I listed first the gun would not of been much help.

Anyone else CC and incorporate that in to your self defense plan, do you have an EDC pack you keep in your truck, or maybe just a few odds and ends you try to have around? I have a small pack I carry in the truck and with me to work. Honestly it's more to hold my lunch and a few cokes but I tossed in a few things to help in an emergency. Just a flash light, some rope a small stick to make a tunicate, gloves.

I would think even with martial arts a lot of people would incorporate a firearm into their plan? Maybe I'm way off.

My comments were nothing to do with a taboo in the martial arts. I.genuinely feel that fear of violence is a bigger problem than actual violence unless you live in Syria or somewhere similar .

Also armour might actually protect you where a firearm won't.

Bill Mattocks summed up my beliefs regarding firearms very well when explaining his own feelings.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My analysis of my current lifestyle, based on geography, income (yes it matters, sadly), where I go and with whom I associate leads me to believe that although I live in the northern burbs of Detroit, my chances of having to defend myself against violence are relatively low. Most likely would be some kind of road rage situation.

I don't drink in public, hang out at bars, nightclubs or the like. I don't do drugs or buy sex; these are the things that increase risk of being in close proximity to violent people.

I am quite fortunate, I don't discount that. Not everyone has the advantages I do.