Compulsory Schooling - Necessity or Waste?

[chaos1551]

Why are you and others assuming the children/adults won't take responsibility for their own education? I am personally ready to just trust people to take care of it and that we as a society just need to make sure that people have as many venues to do that as possible. Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.

I assume based on what I see. How many children would fall through the cracks if education wasn't regulated? I have my doubts about the current American system, and I see many ways it could be improved. However, with alcoholism, laziness, abuse and any other social problems we could think of affecting us, I can see how many children would fall through the cracks. Many do already. For a lot of kids out there, school is their safe zone.

My children are in public schools. They are not all perfect students. Some require more help than others. Between the public schools and my wife and I, they are doing pretty well. I know our education system could be better (yes, please let's get the Feds out of it). I'd rather work on making what we have better than scrapping the compulsory side of it.

The history of our education system is a little horrifying (we forgot to mention how schools are architecturally designed like prisons). The system is still made up of people, and a lot of those people are good people. There was one or two advisors/teachers who held me back. There were a lot who just did their job. But I remember the one or two who did a fine job of getting to the core of me, even if it was for just a moment. Perhaps I have the luxury of such a memory, but it's the one I hold on to. Not the crap.

Without compulsory education, at first we would all educate our kids. A few wouldn't, and they'd turn out okay. The next generation would see a further decline in numbers. And I predict the trend would continue. For elective education to be as good as what we have now, there would have to be a major shift in American collective consciousness.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's easy for those that live under the regulation of compulsory education to take it for granted while parents in less-privileged countries struggle daily for elementary school tuition for their children (often not seeing them for years at a time) just to help their children be able to rise above and make more of their lives than they would without education.

With MTV and reality TV in our (American) culture, the lack of compulsory school would be an economic disaster. We're bad off enough as it is.

I am so glad I have an elementary education. Given the choice, I wouldn't have gone to school. What kid would, seriously? Without it, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts here at all, typing and spelling and all that.

Why does being force to go to school have to be equated with the ability to go to school? Perhaps a society can make it possible for a person to attend whatever school they wish whenever they want to?

 

[Thesemindz]

Thought this might be topical.

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle557-20100214-04.html


-Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

I assume based on what I see. How many children would fall through the cracks if education wasn't regulated? I have my doubts about the current American system, and I see many ways it could be improved. However, with alcoholism, laziness, abuse and any other social problems we could think of affecting us, I can see how many children would fall through the cracks. Many do already. For a lot of kids out there, school is their safe zone.

My children are in public schools. They are not all perfect students. Some require more help than others. Between the public schools and my wife and I, they are doing pretty well. I know our education system could be better (yes, please let's get the Feds out of it). I'd rather work on making what we have better than scrapping the compulsory side of it.

The history of our education system is a little horrifying (we forgot to mention how schools are architecturally designed like prisons). The system is still made up of people, and a lot of those people are good people. There was one or two advisors/teachers who held me back. There were a lot who just did their job. But I remember the one or two who did a fine job of getting to the core of me, even if it was for just a moment. Perhaps I have the luxury of such a memory, but it's the one I hold on to. Not the crap.

Imagine of a kid could go to a school that would teach what interested them rather then something they are forced to go to? Imagine spreading the public school wealth into small businesses rather then large institutions. What would that do for your economy?

Without compulsory education, at first we would all educate our kids. A few wouldn't, and they'd turn out okay. The next generation would see a further decline in numbers. And I predict the trend would continue.

Why would you assume that kids aren't interested in learning?

For elective education to be as good as what we have now, there would have to be a major shift in American collective consciousness.

What kind of shift?

 

[Thesemindz]

It seems like everyone here thinks education is a positive and important thing. If that's the case, then why do we need to use guns to compel people to engage in an activity which is so universally valued? Why wouldn't people seek out education for themselves and their children in the absence of coercive violence?


-Rob

 

[Makalakumu]

Why wouldn't people seek out education for themselves and their children in the absence of coercive violence?

Reading this thread, it seems like people really are arguing that humans are stupid, lazy, and immoral at their cores. Thus they need someone to shepherd them toward the light...

How do we know that people need to be forced to go to school? How do we know that people can't take care of their own education if we, as a society, make opportunities available?

How do we know that public schools are failing? Do we even know that they are failing?

The global achievement gap...

Do we even know even our top schools are the bottom of the (1st World) barrel world wide?

 

[Thesemindz]

If humans are stupid, lazy, and immoral, then why would we want to give some of them the capacity to use violence to compel others to obey?

As to your second point, we actually know for a fact that people will pursue education in the absence of coercion, because they did before the seizure of the schools by the state, and they still do all the time, even at great personal cost to themselves.

And we know that our schools are failing not only because we can compare their effectiveness now to other school systems, but also because we can compare the results to the level of education prior to compulsory education.

The reality of compulsory state education has nothing to do with the lofty positive goals that people imagine. It is about indoctrination and control, and those responsible have never made any effort to hide that fact.


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

I wanted to throw up a poll to take an informal survey of the MT community. How do you feel about the concept of forcing someone to go to school? Compulsory schooling laws do just that. They force parents to send their children to school until they reach 16 or 18 years old depending on the state. Is this something our society needs to do?

Much better to get them started on Public Assistance right away, I always say. LOL
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

The reality of compulsory state education has nothing to do with the lofty positive goals that people imagine. It is about indoctrination and control, and those responsible have never made any effort to hide that fact.

This really is the truth. If you can unglue someone's eyes from the TV or the Stuporbowl for a moment and put them on a book or two, you can read what people actually said they were trying to accomplish. It's not some secret conspiracy if you can go out and openly read about how the elite wanted to intentionally dumb down Americans. Hell, they even openly say that Americans are too literate and that it makes them too hard to control. Look it up for yourself...

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/

 

[Thesemindz]

Sure, I've posted the quotes here before. It's not a secret, it's just ignored.

Which is of course a very predictable outcome of fourteen or more years of eight hour a day indoctrination.


-Rob

 

[chaos1551]

Public school is not compulsory. School is. You can be home-schooled, you can go to a private school. Typically, the moment a government subsidizes any school, it becomes a public school. Taking money away from public schools and investing it in small businesses would create jobs. Would the people fillings those jobs have an education? I hope so. If not, it sounds like a good way to control the masses for the elite. Just keep them working and making money and they'll never know any better. Seems like we've already been there in America. The only way to know whether or not kids would be educated in contemporary American society without compulsory schooling would be to try it. I don't know of any models that we could base the new system on (without compulsory schooling) that we could be relatively comfortable it would work.

If the government was really trying to uphold some sort of conspiracy to "dumb down" Americans, they truly would use guns to force us into public schools and not give us the option of attending better schools. Maybe at one time, but certainly not anymore.. though.. guns? I think I get your point anyway.

Kids like to play. They don't like to work. Given the choice of what to study, I doubt they would get a well-rounded education--if any at all. I'm not arguing that people are immoral and stupid, but in general they are lazy. So when a parent (who thinks education is important) forces their kid to go to school, it's really no different to the kid if it's the government or not. They still won't want to be there.

I'm confused about why the elite (who control government, in my opinion) would want people to be ignorant and less literate while on the same hand making school compulsory. I don't think indoctrination works well when you're teaching people how to read and write, which enables them to move past the indoctrination. Seems illogical.

The question at the beginning of this post is whether or not school should be compulsory, not public school. Public school could be so much better. No one is using guns to force us (fines, maybe) and I'm sure that people who don't know how to spell "goal" are in an extremely small minority in our education system. Usually folks on public assistance (in my experience) are relatively uneducated.

I am no expert and I've done little research. I convey from personal experience and from the experience of people I know. My opinion is that public schools are getting worse and I'd like to see it get better. I am not alone. Though seemingly ineffective, G. Dub wanted to see it get better, hence No Child Left Behind. Some argue that we need to put more money into the school budget, not slash that line item like we've generally been doing. Teachers should not have to feel bad or afraid to fail students (and in my experience, most don't and aren't). The major shift we need to take in our society that I believe would help the school system is moving away from political correctness. Public school textbooks suffer horrendously because of political correctness.

In the spirit of debate, I'd like to point out again that I and those I disagree with can certainly agree on one thing: quality education is important.

 

[David43515]

Life is tough, it`s tougher if you`re stupid.

John Wayne