Compulsory Schooling - Necessity or Waste?

[Blade96]

Well, it looks like I'm the only one who has voted no. Here's why. As a long time public school teacher, private school teacher, and reformer I am beginning to really understand the power of choice in education. When we force students to go to schools, especially to failing schools or schools that teach material that goes against our core beliefs (whatever that may be) we are ultimately not as effective as we could be.

You know, I can agree with this. who, for example, would want to put their children into a creationist classroom for example when they do not teach the truth? that evolution is the closest theory we have.

Or, for example, in Stalin's soviet union, for example, they taught Lysenkoism, instead of Mendel's version (Lysenkoism held that there isnt a such thing as genes and that you can acquire characterististics which can then be inherited. It was more for the social engineering of society than it was about teaching real science.)

The idea of compulsory schooling laws, as we know them, was conceived in Prussia in Napoleonic times. Their design was to take the children away from the family and engineer them for the state. This kind of management was popularized in this country starting around 1840 and really didn't get into full swing until the early 1900s. It was during this time that the various elite visions of Utopia were thrust upon the people the schools began to be used as tools for propaganda. Teachers became social managers and education, rather then drawing out what was inside, became a process of putting in what was desired.

I can agree, and governments still use education as propaganda for the masses. At the risk of offending someone, sometimes this is still used in America. For example, We Canadians spend sometimes defining just what being 'Canadian' means. Americans, wouldnt necessarily do this; they 'know' what it means to be an American through education put to them by their govs and states.

Ultimately, I see a society in which their is no need to force people to go to school because people can find options to learn what they want to learn. Compulsory schooling was designed for social engineering, not education. Real education comes from within, from the individual. The word education means to draw out. You can't use force to cram things in and expect that people will truly and honestly become educated.

I think what needs to be done is not abolish compulsory education laws, but come to the fact that sometimes its how we educate people that needs to be changed. and not this law.

 

[sandanbob]

This is a topic that I believe is difficult to discuss in short comments, due to its complexity. Having said that, I am going to share a few.

First, I agree that the federal government (USA) does not have constitutional authority over education- as I was taught, any authority not expressly delegated to the federal government was retained by the states. However, there are many areas in which the federal government has overstepped its bounds, this is only one.

Next- it is also true that our current public education system is based on that of Prussia- that's where the term "kindergarden" comes from.

Third- I do believe in education. However, I do have doubts concerning the state of public education in our country. My wife and I are planning on homeschooling our children (we have one, so far, who is 13 months old.)

My wife worked as a teacher, including teaching an 8th grade science class. The principal in her school told the student body that there grades in 8th grade didn't matter, and they didn't need to try, since it wasn't until high school that grades counted. I could not believe it when my wife told me this. If students are not expected to do well in one grade, how will that help them excell in the future? (I told her that she was NOT to return to that school, because of this, and because she was not allowed to give true grades for those who failed.) Anyway, that is only one example of the failure of our school system- I suspect other members of this forum could come up with a myriad.

In the case of my wife and I, we feel confident that we can give our children a well rouned education- not just in 'school subjects', but in life. She has a bachelors degree in geology, masters in geophysics, and bachelors in elementary education and I have a bachelors in mechanical engineering. Add that to our interests/hobbies, such as gardening, woodworking, hiking/biking/canoeing/kayaking, SCUBA diving, martial arts, literature, computers, Ham radio, history... I am also active in ommunity service (volunteered for town boards) and Lion's Club. We are strong believers in taking responsibility for our actions, and will expect our children to do so, and suffer any consequences, as well as reap any rewards.

Anyway... just sharing some thoughts, in a somewhat random manner.

In summary- I do not believe our current system in America is ideal, or even very good. Some students do well, and rise above their education, but probably that is the minority. Can we do better? Yes. How to do so? I don't feel qualified to deal in the finer details, but would be willing to work with people on a local and state level to do so.

Thanks.

Bob

 

[Drac]

I voted until the child reaches 16..I thankfully was able to quit school at 17 because I really wasn't learning anything except how to judge someone on their looks, dress, mannerisms, and that it was OK for the more popular students ( jocks) to get away with threating those of us that were not aggressive..When I felt the need and desire to learn, I took courses at the local community college...

 

[Blade96]

i quit school at 16 and in just grade 10 for reasons I've already stated in the thread on bullying. I wasnt learning anything except what you said, drac, and how to hate and fear.

Now I have a univ degree though and am almost yellow belt in shotokan. (my senseis want a grading for us before the end of feb.) and gold medalist in shotokan too.

i still think no need to get rid of compulsory laws, its the schooling system itself that needs to change. the law is fine.

 

[Makalakumu]

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?

 

[Ken Morgan]

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?

You can never force anyone to learn anything. I don't think thats quite what you meant to say, our school systems are not set up in that way at all. You must attend school, but no one can force you to learn anything you chose not to learn.

Children and people in general are basically lazy, we all want the easy way to get some where. Children do not have the maturity to see the value in education when they are young, hence why we make them go.

The main problem with education, not counting bad teachers/admin is all too many parents think that it is the schools responsibilty to educate their children, it is and it isn't. Parents are the biggest eduucators and influences on their children lives.

Treat your children with respect, buy them good foods before you buy your beer, make sure they have warm clothes, read to them, take an interest in their schooling and lives. Praise them. Show your child that their education matters to you and is important, and you'll see them generally do well in school.

 

[MJS]

Schooling is an absolute necessity. Private schooled, public schooled, home schooled, or whatever, we need to learn many basic skills that will help us get through life.

We don’t live in a society where being uneducated is an option. There are no more high paying, unskilled jobs available to the uneducated. Gone are the days were you could get by without knowing how to read or write and still raise a family.

Not educating your children, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.

I agree with this. IMO, some sort of schooling, such as you listed, needs to be done. College is one thing, as its not for everyone, however, seems nowadays, a college degree is almost a requirement on many jobs, although there are jobs that dont require them. But HS..yes, a HS diploma is needed.

 

[MJS]

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?

I'm of the thought that if you force someone to do something, they're not going to give it 100%. That being said, I used to ***** about going to school, just like I ***** about going to work everyday.....who doesn't? LOL.

It should be explained that a HS diploma or GED is important, and unless they want to accept a life of min. wage jobs, and a rough road in the future, they should at least put forth the effort to get that much. Then again, people are forced to do things all the time, so why not just suck it up, and deal with it for 12yrs. If thats as far as they want to go, fine, but at least they have that much.

 

[Drac]

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?

One of the last conversations I had with the guidance counselor when my grades were bad I got the old " just keep on trying your best" scriped speech..I asked would she give me a straight answer and she said she would.."Do you pass people for trying?" and her answer was "No"..I quit a few days later...

 

[Gordon Nore]

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?

I think that question focuses your opening post: We can make education mandatory. We can't make learning mandatory. Nobody ever learned anything they didn't want to.

My vote FWIW is for status quo in my province -- compulsory school attendance up until age sixteen. I really should use the phrase "school registration" rather than "attendance" because, at a some point, it's very hard to compel a child to attend school.

Why? As Bill and others have suggested, there far fewer opportunities for people with less than a high school diploma. Traditional jobs that rewarded loyalty and sheer bull work with a good wage and a pension don't exist. My grandfather, like many of his generation, had an elementary education and a great willingness to work hard, so he prospered on the railroad. That time has past us.

Realistically, all workers should be prepared to educate and train throughout their careers, thus a foundation in learning, as well as learning how to learn, is very important.

Now, most of the discussion here has been about schools and their function to prepare people for work. Ideally schools should stimulate people's curiosity, so that they are both interesting and interested.

 

[Makalakumu]

You can never force anyone to learn anything. I don't think thats quite what you meant to say, our school systems are not set up in that way at all. You must attend school, but no one can force you to learn anything you chose not to learn.

You can force children to learn something, but it isn't what you think. Our system IS set up to force people to learn. If you look at the way students are sanctioned, evaluated, and ostracized, it is a system that is clearly designed to force people to learn. We've taken a step back from physical punishment, but the mental and emotional sanctions instituted by the system are more then enough to some degree of socialization. Content is always secondary to this. The socialization process is what people are really evaluated on. Compliance is what gets people ahead, not what people actually learn.

Children and people in general are basically lazy, we all want the easy way to get some where. Children do not have the maturity to see the value in education when they are young, hence why we make them go.

I've found that all children really do want to learn and that they all have boundless energy and creativity. We teach them not to think and to be lazy in school.

The main problem with education, not counting bad teachers/admin is all too many parents think that it is the schools responsibilty to educate their children, it is and it isn't. Parents are the biggest eduucators and influences on their children lives.

Treat your children with respect, buy them good foods before you buy your beer, make sure they have warm clothes, read to them, take an interest in their schooling and lives. Praise them. Show your child that their education matters to you and is important, and you'll see them generally do well in school.

Yes. Show your children to learn for its own sake, not to please anyone or to get something in return. Show your children how to learn something with everything they do.

 

[Drac]

If I had been allowed to attend school with being the target of bullies I might have prospered there...I remember getting a test back and the teacher wrote " You flunked another one stupid" on it in red pencil...Oh yeah, that made me wanna come back...

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that question focuses your opening post: We can make education mandatory. We can't make learning mandatory. Nobody ever learned anything they didn't want to.

My vote FWIW is for status quo in my province -- compulsory school attendance up until age sixteen. I really should use the phrase "school registration" rather than "attendance" because, at a some point, it's very hard to compel a child to attend school.

Why? As Bill and others have suggested, there far fewer opportunities for people with less than a high school diploma. Traditional jobs that rewarded loyalty and sheer bull work with a good wage and a pension don't exist. My grandfather, like many of his generation, had an elementary education and a great willingness to work hard, so he prospered on the railroad. That time has past us.

Realistically, all workers should be prepared to educate and train throughout their careers, thus a foundation in learning, as well as learning how to learn, is very important.

Now, most of the discussion here has been about schools and their function to prepare people for work. Ideally schools should stimulate people's curiosity, so that they are both interesting and interested.

Why are you and others assuming the children/adults won't take responsibility for their own education? I am personally ready to just trust people to take care of it and that we as a society just need to make sure that people have as many venues to do that as possible. Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.

 

[Drac]

Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.

I must disagree...I attended until I could not stand it any longer and stated cutting school before I finally quit..I was alradu working part time and was praised at my job by all the bosses for my attendance and job performance..Just being out of school gave me the internal motivation you speak of..

 

[Makalakumu]

If I had been allowed to attend school with being the target of bullies I might have prospered there...I remember getting a test back and the teacher wrote " You flunked another one stupid" on it in red pencil...Oh yeah, that made me wanna come back...

I believe that you should be able to walk away from a school with teachers like that and find something that works for you. Teachers don't have to make comments like that to hurt others, they can do it by being professional and simply following the rules in a school. You simply can't be creative if failure is punished. When failure is punished, you are really just learning how to obey.

 

[Blade96]

I believe that you should be able to walk away from a school with teachers like that and find something that works for you. Teachers don't have to make comments like that to hurt others, they can do it by being professional and simply following the rules in a school. You simply can't be creative if failure is punished. When failure is punished, you are really just learning how to obey.

Drac's not the only one who had a teacher like that.

I had a teacher when i was in grade 3 once say to my parents about me, "when it comes to creativity, Jacklyn (my name) is a lost cause"

I was abused at that school by teachers and students.

I dont give a rats abdomen about her....Everything i ever did and prospered in since have been about the ARTS. My univ degree, my martial arts....

and the arts is all about creativity.

It hasnt changed much since then (the early 1980's back then)

She can get stuffed.

 

[Ken Morgan]

There are many bad teachers out there, there are many amazing teachers too, most I think fall in the middle somewhere.

I’m halfway through getting my certification, and most of the people in my group will be average to amazing teachers, but judging by their work ethics and what they say/do during downtime, there are a couple that you just know will fall in the bad category. I don’t know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.

 

[Blade96]

There are many bad teachers out there, there are many amazing teachers too, most I think fall in the middle somewhere.

I’m halfway through getting my certification, and most of the people in my group will be average to amazing teachers, but judging by their work ethics and what they say/do during downtime, there are a couple that you just know will fall in the bad category. I don’t know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.

my mom's a teacher and she said when she was getting her ed degree there were some people doing education....but they didnt like children. go figure.

i think some of these people dont like kids. but they still let them in.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don’t know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.

My first principal was very hard on me. I worked at one of the toughest schools in the city and he demanded that we improve our practice no matter what. We had to be reflective and we had to show evidence of growth. If we couldn't do that or we wouldn't look inside ourselves to see how we could constantly be moving forward with our practice, he would fire us. Our district had a three year probationary period where you could be let go for any reason. My first three years of teacher were punishing meatgrinders that taught me how to teach any student.

 

[chaos1551]

It's easy for those that live under the regulation of compulsory education to take it for granted while parents in less-privileged countries struggle daily for elementary school tuition for their children (often not seeing them for years at a time) just to help their children be able to rise above and make more of their lives than they would without education.

With MTV and reality TV in our (American) culture, the lack of compulsory school would be an economic disaster. We're bad off enough as it is.

I am so glad I have an elementary education. Given the choice, I wouldn't have gone to school. What kid would, seriously? Without it, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts here at all, typing and spelling and all that.