Community Service for Black Belts

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmmm, internal arguments with myself. Agreed that volunteer is negated with the being told to IMO. I figure that within a system that Wholey marked as ability to fight or technique only, well then that is what you get graded on. Some TMA, grade also based on the growing character of a student, becoming a better more educated person overall. Some actually seek that sort of thing. I do believe that it needs to be stated up front. I know our school, which has always been donation based have done car washes and so on to raise funds to buy mats etc etc. I of course did expect students to show and be there. You would also be right that it would colour ones view as to who came and who did not.
Certainly when that was a regular thing over the years. Some arts do look at personal development towards dan ranking as a sign of maturity and development as part of what it means to reach that level. I don't see anything wrong with that. Part and parcel to the art you pick. For sure, at some point prior to getting to that level you will have discovered if that system is for you or not.
I willingly did things for my school. I don't know if I was ever told to do anything. Could have, but I would have if it had been requested of me. But that was me and the way I looked at it

I think you and I are pretty close on this one. I'm thinking a school with this sort of requirement - if it fits with the overall character of the school - it should be pretty obvious there will be more than combat skill required for advancement. Even if the student isn't told the specific requirement of community service when they sign up, it should come as no surprise when they see it in the manual or whatever, if it's in line with the overall culture of the school.

The closest I can come is that brown belts were expected to help maintain the dojo I trained at. There was a sheet for cleaning and other stuff, so you could see what needed to be done (so everyone wasn't just cleaning the mirrors 8 times a day). Brown belts were evaluated on how regularly they signed stuff off. If you didn't do enough, you wouldn't be eligible for BB testing/promotion. But it was never a surprise to students when they got to brown. Everyone knew the sheet was there, and many of us started helping out (and signing stuff off) as soon as we started training. When we were promoted to brown, we were officially informed of the requirement and what they'd be looking for. Many of us didn't know there was a specific requirement prior to that point - we just knew brown and black belts were always doing stuff on that list, so we expected to do the same.

 

[Hot Lunch]

That's an odd choice of view. Rank is always gated behind something - why does it bother you so much that it's gated behind something that serves the larger community.

Do you have the same view of, say, Eagle Scout rank?

No. Community service is part of scouting. Also, parents know this when they're signing their children up.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Yeah, I haven't heard of that, though I could see some schools (or at least some teachers) doing that. Not a bad idea, actually, given that academic scores aren't a great predictor of job success.

The only way I can see this being the case is there's a specific course about community service. Even then, I still can't see this being legal unless the school provides transportation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Out of curiosity, i looked up the bjj school down the road from me, since I know they're heavy on kids programs. The first review on google was "the instructors are great at teaching life skills and martial arts", with life skills coming firat. The website mentions self defense, but also talks about giving kids healthy habits, teaching them good attitude, improving their social skills, it would not surprise me if they included a part on community service for a rank, or if they included it on the website. And, based on the reviews (more sinilar to that first one), that's what the parents are actually looking for.

My school growing up did not have a community service part, but did have us bring in our grades each semester, and had a talk with us if they dipped (compared to each students normal standard). They also had "matts corner" at the beginning of class, where he'd go over values with us, and there was a great focus on learning 3 things: respect, self discipline and self control. Those three words were on signs throughout the dojo. Again, i think most parents would have actually liked if there was a community service aspect to rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. Community service is part of scouting. Also, parents know this when they're signing their children up.

So, if it's part of the program at a dojo, then it's fine, right?

And again, I think it's fine if folks figure out some of the requirements as they get into things, so long as it's never a surprise.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So, if it's part of the program at a dojo, then it's fine, right?

That's not a simple yes or no.

Community service is part of the mission of the scouts. You really don't have scouts if you don't have community service as part of it. And they're engaging in community service long before they're eligible for Eagle Scout.

The same isn't true of martial arts. Anyone who owns a dojo can run it however they see fit, but it's only fair to let people know up front of any extra-curricular requirements if there are any. That's all I'm saying.

Now do I agree with having these requirements - community service, in particular? No, because as I said before, the motives to engage in community service should be 100% purely intrinsic. Not for a reward.

But, once again, as long as people know this when they're signing up; nobody's being deceived, so there's at least that.

 

[Bujingodai]

That's not a simple yes or no.

Community service is part of the mission of the scouts. You really don't have scouts if you don't have community service as part of it. And they're engaging in community service long before they're eligible for Eagle Scout.

The same isn't true of martial arts. Anyone who owns a dojo can run it however they see fit, but it's only fair to let people know up front of any extra-curricular requirements if there are any. That's all I'm saying.

Now do I agree with having these requirements - community service, in particular? No, because as I said before, the motives to engage in community service should be 100% purely intrinsic. Not for a reward.

But, once again, as long as people know this when they're signing up; nobody's being deceived, so there's at least that.

OK so in the meat of all of this it is semantics. If someone is interested in the school it should be discussed that your program is involved in community outreach missions etc etc. That at some point you may be asked or encouraged to participate.

I mean, when you visit a school you will get an idea of their culture. I have seen a few in my travel and training that are loose and some militaristic. Both seem to work and churn out a different personality of student, much different caliber. Caveat emptor in the end and do your research. Some people look for that kind of structure.

I have a friend. Have co taught seminars for many years. His school, very old school, almost feudal era Samurai Bujutsu. He was sent many kids from the "system" worked with a number of orgs. Most strict school I have ever witnessed. But the students he churned out, became very professional workers, effective martial artists. Rose above the situation in life they were. The school seemed very cultish for a number of people including me. However, it was what these students needed and yearned for. Sometimes The Reigi saho is what they come for.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think you misunderstand what a cult is. Having requirements outside the school doesn't require devotion to the leader, or anything else that's commonly seen as "cultish".

The modern colloquial usage of the word "cult" is incorrect itself. The correct usage of the term is a sect of a religion with a more narrow focus. For example, a polytheistic religion where some people follow one specific god. The most famous example of this would be modern Abrahamic religions, where proto-Judaism began as a cult of Yahweh, who was originally one of the many gods who were part of the Canaanite pantheon.

The correct term for what we call a "cult" today is "new religious movement."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only way I can see this being the case is there's a specific course about community service. Even then, I still can't see this being legal unless the school provides transportation.

Yeah, if there wasn't an option that's accessible to all, it would face legal issues. I suspect just having an after-school opportunity on-site would suffice (since schools typically already have late-run busses for activities).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not a simple yes or no.

Community service is part of the mission of the scouts. You really don't have scouts if you don't have community service as part of it. And they're engaging in community service long before they're eligible for Eagle Scout.

The same isn't true of martial arts. Anyone who owns a dojo can run it however they see fit, but it's only fair to let people know up front of any extra-curricular requirements if there are any. That's all I'm saying.

It's not true of martial arts as you see it. If someone else views character-building and community development as part of what martial arts is, then community service fits naturally within that.

Here's where I think we differ on this point: community service is only intrinsic to scouting because it was made part of the values. If scouting was (as the name might imply) just focused on outdoor activities and skill-building (which it easily could have been), we'd think it strange if they suddenly decided helping out at a retirement home would get you a badge. So if a dojo/program has a focus on service, then including a community service requirement is right in line, just like it is with the scouts.

I also think you're conflating two things: the motivation for volunteering, and the value of service. If a school wants to contribute to the community, they may wish to have all of their members past a certain point participating. This could be entirely about getting people to contribute, and not about what motivates people to serve. So it's not contrary to service if someone does it just because it's required by a MA program - any more than it is with the scouts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The modern colloquial usage of the word "cult" is incorrect itself. The correct usage of the term is a sect of a religion with a more narrow focus. For example, a polytheistic religion where some people follow one specific god. The most famous example of this would be modern Abrahamic religions, where proto-Judaism began as a cult of Yahweh, who was originally one of the many gods who were part of the Canaanite pantheon.

The correct term for what we call a "cult" today is "new religious movement."

General usage cannot, by definition, be "incorrect" - it's just changed from the original meaning. Words only mean what we (the users, at large) agree they mean, so meanings change over time, as people use them differently.

Most folks don't use "cult" to mean "new religious movement". They use it to refer to groups where people are told what and how to think (potentially including brainwashing and/or misinformation), and usually some unusual devotion to the leader - hence the common term "cult-like following".

 

[HighKick]

What a weak, losing response. This is how a teenager responds when their mom tells them that they're gonna stink if they don't shower.


What do the parent's choices have to do with the child being evaluated?


Who's bashing community service?


I'll do it if and when I want to. Not because it's a condition of being rewarded something. In truth, making it a condition of a reward totally nullifies the "volunteer" part of "volunteer work." The only difference is that the compensation is something other than money.

Show me where, anywhere", I said "it's a condition of being rewarded something. Just above, you said "Who's bashing community service?". You. You have been bashing community service by twisting our efforts into something they are Not. Even though it has been stated time and time again that everything done is 100% voluntary.
Wow.

 

[HighKick]

This is the part that Dirty Dog isn't getting. He's saying that I'm asking schools to go over every little detail of what's going to be expected of them. When people sign up, this is what they believe will be asked of them - show up, train, go home. Anything outside of that is pretty significant and needs to be mentioned.

That just makes no sense as far as an answer. Crawfishing?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the part that Dirty Dog isn't getting. He's saying that I'm asking schools to go over every little detail of what's going to be expected of them. When people sign up, this is what they believe will be asked of them - show up, train, go home. Anything outside of that is pretty significant and needs to be mentioned.

I disagree that it's this clear. Many schools require stuff beyond "show up ,train, go home". If it's at all traditional, there will be ritual and etiquette that is expected. Lots of schools expect students to help with parts of upkeep (putting group gear away, perhaps cleaning, etc.). In many cases, to achieve rank beyond a point, students will have to train some on their own time. Some schools have a vocabulary requirement (we had two - one at first student rank, one at first BB rank) None of this should be a real shocker to anyone. And while that information should be available, I don't think it's at all necessary to cover every bit of it when someone signs up - I'd want to cover what's going to matter in the short term (if thye're expected to clean something after every class, they need to know that before they sign up, or I've not set expectations properly). I'd rather have them watching class for 30 minutes than spending that time doing CYA on stuff that won't matter to them for a couple of years, at best.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Show me where, anywhere", I said "it's a condition of being rewarded something. Just above, you said "Who's bashing community service?". You. You have been bashing community service by twisting our efforts into something they are Not. Even though it has been stated time and time again that everything done is 100% voluntary.
Wow.

You mean I said "community service sucks" or something else to that effect? Because if you're interpreting anything I said to mean that, then you're being emotional.

 

[Hot Lunch]

That just makes no sense as far as an answer. Crawfishing?

Your inability to comprehend simple things is a reflection on you, not me.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I disagree that it's this clear. Many schools require stuff beyond "show up ,train, go home". If it's at all traditional, there will be ritual and etiquette that is expected. Lots of schools expect students to help with parts of upkeep (putting group gear away, perhaps cleaning, etc.). In many cases, to achieve rank beyond a point, students will have to train some on their own time. Some schools have a vocabulary requirement (we had two - one at first student rank, one at first BB rank) None of this should be a real shocker to anyone.

All things that are physically happening in the school.

And while that information should be available, I don't think it's at all necessary to cover every bit of it when someone signs up - I'd want to cover what's going to matter in the short term (if thye're expected to clean something after every class, they need to know that before they sign up, or I've not set expectations properly). I'd rather have them watching class for 30 minutes than spending that time doing CYA on stuff that won't matter to them for a couple of years, at best.

You don't find extra-curricular requirements to be significant enough to stand out and be worth mentioning?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All things that are physically happening in the school.

Except for the training on their own. And much of that is not just "train", though it's at the school. If the community service were something that could be done at the school, does that really change anything about your comments?

You don't find extra-curricular requirements to be significant enough to stand out and be worth mentioning?

Nothing I was required to do for BB was specifically discussed prior to me signing up. It was in the manual, and I could see it if I wanted to The manual was offered while I was watching class, and I glanced at it, but definitely didn't read grading requirements. If he had started talking about the requirements for BB (or even one of the senior student ranks), I'd have wondered why he was pushing the idea of BB to someone who hadn't even started yet.

I'd consider any significant requirements worth making sure folks know about well before they become an issue. Usually, just putting it in whatever requirements list is available is sufficient until they are getting to where they need to start paying attention to it - scuttlebut around the dojo will fill in more details for the curious.

Here's something probably more equivalent: BB in the NGAA requires a minimum of a year of student teaching, while still attending classes to train. That means, at minimum, twice the number of classes folks are "signing up" for (dues included any number of classes, but the expectation was 2 per week). This wasn't something that was discussed at all before signing up, unless someone asked specifically about what it took to get BB - and then mostly because those folks were either looking for an easy BB (and this would tell them we weren't the place for that) or looking to avoid places that gave an easy BB (and this might answer that question for them). Folks usually learned about this requirement either by reading their manual, or just hearing about it from other students. When they got to purple belt (2 belts away from BB), we'd cover it specifically but briefly so they could plan for the time commitment. When they reached brown, we'd cover the details, so they could meet the requirement if they wanted to move toward BB.

That teaching requirement was a much bigger time commitment than some community service. Counting just the class time, it would mean a commitment of at least 150 hours. Class planning and debriefing with the supervising instructor would add considerably to that time if the student was serious about it.

There were those who chose not to pursue BB, because of this requirement. They were not upset about not having been told many years before that this might happen - they simply weren't interested in instructing, or had other priorities that precluded the commitment.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Except for the training on their own. And much of that is not just "train", though it's at the school.

No one can really prove whether or not a student is doing, unless students are required to record videos of themselves. More than likely, the instructor is relying on what he or she sees in the school to assess this.

If the community service were something that could be done at the school, does that really change anything about your comments?

I think that such a requirement would still suck, but maybe suck less.

Nothing I was required to do for BB was specifically discussed prior to me signing up. It was in the manual, and I could see it if I wanted to The manual was offered while I was watching class, and I glanced at it, but definitely didn't read grading requirements. If he had started talking about the requirements for BB (or even one of the senior student ranks), I'd have wondered why he was pushing the idea of BB to someone who hadn't even started yet.

I'd consider any significant requirements worth making sure folks know about well before they become an issue. Usually, just putting it in whatever requirements list is available is sufficient until they are getting to where they need to start paying attention to it - scuttlebut around the dojo will fill in more details for the curious.

I kind of look at it as a young adult in their 20's deciding to eat healthy and exercise in order to prevent things like Alzheimer's, type 2 diabetes, and other things that effect people past middle age.

Are these things of immediate concern to a 20 year old? No. But do 20 year olds know - or at least should they know - that these things will eventually become a concern in the future, and that the earlier they start taking care themselves, the better? Without a doubt. That's how I'm looking at a prospective student understanding the requirements for black belt.

Here's something probably more equivalent: BB in the NGAA requires a minimum of a year of student teaching, while still attending classes to train. That means, at minimum, twice the number of classes folks are "signing up" for (dues included any number of classes, but the expectation was 2 per week). This wasn't something that was discussed at all before signing up, unless someone asked specifically about what it took to get BB - and then mostly because those folks were either looking for an easy BB (and this would tell them we weren't the place for that) or looking to avoid places that gave an easy BB (and this might answer that question for them). Folks usually learned about this requirement either by reading their manual, or just hearing about it from other students. When they got to purple belt (2 belts away from BB), we'd cover it specifically but briefly so they could plan for the time commitment. When they reached brown, we'd cover the details, so they could meet the requirement if they wanted to move toward BB.

That teaching requirement was a much bigger time commitment than some community service. Counting just the class time, it would mean a commitment of at least 150 hours. Class planning and debriefing with the supervising instructor would add considerably to that time if the student was serious about it.

There were those who chose not to pursue BB, because of this requirement. They were not upset about not having been told many years before that this might happen - they simply weren't interested in instructing, or had other priorities that precluded the commitment.

My last dojo had a similar requirement, but I didn't see it as shocking. I simply thought it was a normal part of martial arts at the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No one can really prove whether or not a student is doing, unless students are required to record videos of themselves. More than likely, the instructor is relying on what he or she sees in the school to assess this.


I think that such a requirement would still suck, but maybe suck less.


I kind of look at it as a young adult in their 20's deciding to eat healthy and exercise in order to prevent things like Alzheimer's, type 2 diabetes, and other things that effect people past middle age.

Are these things of immediate concern to a 20 year old? No. But do 20 year olds know - or at least should they know - that these things will eventually become a concern in the future, and that the earlier they start taking care themselves, the better? Without a doubt. That's how I'm looking at a prospective student understanding the requirements for black belt.


My last dojo had a similar requirement, but I didn't see it as shocking. I simply thought it was a normal part of martial arts at the time.

It sounds to me like you’ve just decided community service isn’t an appropriate part of MA. Which would mean that’s not the right dojo for you. Full stop.