Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

[Aiki Lee]

I wish I had something more relevant to say but Chris, Iklawson, K-Man, Xue, and others on here have already pretty much summed up anything I would have said.
I will add though, that there are universal principles and ideas inherent in each art, but because of how each art chooses to express those principles the idea of a universal blackbelt does not seem possible. People have tried a similar idea with this when it comes to "Sokeship councils" and IMO that basically boils down to a bunch of men who have nothing to do with what you do judging you based on some made up criteria that they come up with on their own.

Also, to be fair to the comment Jason made about knowing his training was a result of him being safe and Chris stating that "after it, therefore because of it" concept; I see both sides to this. Having been in a SD situation recently myself, I KNOW it was my training that caused me to act the way I did and keep myself safe. However I can see Chris's point (if I understand it correctly) that even without martial training I may have acted in a way that kept myself safe from harm as well. All I know was that my training was reflected in my actions, and my actions kept me safe. Therefore my training kept me safe.

 

[montecoleman-nar]

In response it is not just politics it is the issue of whatvarious school consider a Martial artist. My system has a different curriculumfrom Shotokan and Kenpo has a different one then tea kwon do etc. Who wouldcompromise who would sacrifice their system's principles I Think we can have auniversal status like beginner, intermediate, and advance, because we all have similarideals of what that is.

 

[lklawson]

Chris,

Trying to PM you. Your msgbox is apparently full.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Aiki Lee]

welcome to Martial talk montecoleman-nar

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris,

Trying to PM you. Your msgbox is apparently full.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hey Kirk,

Yeah, saw that.... clearing some room for you (and a few others).

 

[Chris Parker]

welcome to Martial talk montecoleman-nar

Hmm, I'm going to be delicate here. Well, delicate for me.

I had no idea why Monte Coleman was getting any different treatment (greetings outside of the introduction threads, people thanking for that greeting), as there really wasn't anything particularly fantastic (in fact, I'd argue pieces of it myself), so I did some googling. And found a couple of things.

If you're under the impression that this is the Monte Coleman who was a footballer, something I believe you refer to as a "line-backer", uh, no. For one thing, there's a 17 year age discrepancy between the two individuals. Secondly, the footballing Monte Coleman is in no way related to martial arts in any way that I could find.... however, a different Monte Coleman is mentioned as "CEO" of NAR Martial Arts (hence the handle, really). Now, I'm not saying anything one way or the other, yet, and don't wish to diminish the welcome that Monte Coleman has had here, but I might suggest a quick look on you-tube for NAR Martial Arts (there's a part of a "private lesson" posted that I found)... just sayin'....

Oh, and welcome aboard Monte. Please visit our Meet and Greet section and let us know about yourself, and NAR Martial Arts!

 

[Aiki Lee]

I greeted him because it was his first post. I don't watch football so I don't know who you are talking about. I figured people put there thanks down simply because I was polite to a new member. I really didn't see much else in it really.

Sent via iPhone

 

[Zero]

Wow, what a post to miss the band wagon on. The whole post's proposition is interesting but entirely mad but there is a glimmer of gold from Tony Dismukes:
"In the end, unless you are a ruthless dictator with the power to draft thousands of your subjects into training and fighting gladiatorial matches for your amusement, you aren't likely to find a "scientific" answer as to the best techniques for a martial art."

Can we get a director and producer on this, I'll write the script and we got the kick-a killer kung-fu powie movie of the century, like an updated verson of Enter the Dragon mixed with The Quest and instead of "Universal Solider", we'll call it...."Universal Blackbelt".

:mst:

 

[Zero]

Also, as a bit of an aside, how can people with so called many years of experience ask these quesitons? While it is great to debate and keep open minds and to discuss such matters, surely it is obvious the problems a premise such as this op throws up from the get-go? No offense intended but if you have 13 (or combined 26) years rigourous MA experience, how can you say for example that fundamentaly all punches (or even just punches like a WC and goju-ryu punch) are the same, or that they have the same basis? The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end. If you were new to arts then sure but to have this level of experience and then, at least initially, be surprised to be so picked apart is, surprising. And I love a devil's advocate but I don't think this was the intention. Again, the concept that you have an art taking/borrowing a basic punch, basic front and back kicks, some simple sweeps/shoots//take-downs and submissions and putting it together, well that's fine, but, again, I don't think this was the proposition here, at least not initially.

It's like (again, no offense intended) that Marcy Shoeberg, with years of TKD experience, asking what does offensive and defensive mean with respect to an art. What is going on here?? Lol! (and by that I mean lots of love, not laugh out loud!!)

 

[elder999]

Also, as a bit of an aside, how can people with so called many years of experience ask these quesitons? While it is great to debate and keep open minds and to discuss such matters, surely it is obvious the problems a premise such as this op throws up from the get-go? No offense intended but if you have 13 (or combined 26) years rigourous MA experience, how can you say for example that fundamentaly all punches (or even just punches like a WC and goju-ryu punch) are the same, or that they have the same basis? The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end. If you were new to arts then sure but to have this level of experience and then, at least initially, be surprised to be so picked apart is, surprising. And I love a devil's advocate but I don't think this was the intention. Again, the concept that you have an art taking/borrowing a basic punch, basic front and back kicks, some simple sweeps/shoots//take-downs and submissions and putting it together, well that's fine, but, again, I don't think this was the proposition here, at least not initially.

It's like (again, no offense intended) that Marcy Shoeberg, with years of TKD experience, asking what does offensive and defensive mean with respect to an art. What is going on here?? Lol! (and by that I mean lots of love, not laugh out loud!!)

"Preacher Zero," meet the choir. :lol: :asian:

 

[seasoned]

I greeted him because it was his first post. I don't watch football so I don't know who you are talking about. I figured people put there thanks down simply because I was polite to a new member. I really didn't see much else in it really.

Sent via iPhone

This seems like a fair statement.

 

[Chris Parker]

I greeted him because it was his first post. I don't watch football so I don't know who you are talking about. I figured people put there thanks down simply because I was polite to a new member. I really didn't see much else in it really.

Sent via iPhone

This seems like a fair statement.

Cool. It seemed a little unusual, but nice, so I was just curious. Friendliness is certainly a wonderful thing, so I didn't want to imply that I felt it was misplaced! I'll second the welcome myself... and hope that Monte Coleman does come over to the Meet and Greet to tell us about NAR Martial Arts... I'm a little interested in that.

 

[chinto]

I would say no, as there are some real differences in how some arts do even basics from others.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Also, as a bit of an aside, how can people with so called many years of experience ask these quesitons? While it is great to debate and keep open minds and to discuss such matters, surely it is obvious the problems a premise such as this op throws up from the get-go? No offense intended but if you have 13 (or combined 26) years rigourous MA experience, how can you say for example that fundamentaly all punches (or even just punches like a WC and goju-ryu punch) are the same, or that they have the same basis? The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end. If you were new to arts then sure but to have this level of experience and then, at least initially, be surprised to be so picked apart is, surprising. And I love a devil's advocate but I don't think this was the intention. Again, the concept that you have an art taking/borrowing a basic punch, basic front and back kicks, some simple sweeps/shoots//take-downs and submissions and putting it together, well that's fine, but, again, I don't think this was the proposition here, at least not initially.

It's like (again, no offense intended) that Marcy Shoeberg, with years of TKD experience, asking what does offensive and defensive mean with respect to an art. What is going on here?? Lol! (and by that I mean lots of love, not laugh out loud!!)

Let's see, how can someone with years of experience ask a QUESTION about an IDEA to see what people think? I guess it is because all of my years of training have taught me to be open-minded and search for NEW things, not to be closed minded and dogmatic.

Why take a shot at me with the "so called many years" statement? Does the idea attack your rigid thinking this much that you need to go after me personally?

You say it is great to debate and keep open minds while at the same time attacking the idea of debating certain things and keeping an open mind on them. Well then I guess the debate and minds in the debate are only as open as your view is wide.

How can I say what I did about the punches, because for the most part I have found it to be true. Maybe your experience is different and so you have a different idea about things but that does not mean that others with different ideas are wrong. Even if someone has an idea that is different from the crowd it does not necessarily make that person wrong, just different.

The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end.
So, you are saying that all punches have similarities then. Great. Now, just determine the preferred striking areas and then you analyze how each punch performs attacking those areas rating them on 1) how much damage they caused and 2) how much damage was sustained to the puncher. Once you have this data one or a few will stand out and more than likely one punch will take the cake on the "best" general punch. So, after you have done this across the board you have the most basic set and everything after that is flavor and opinion.


To think you could surmise what I was after or any kind of context from my posting as simple as it was is well - your just jumping to conclusions.

 

[elder999]

. Great. Now, just determine the preferred striking areas and then you analyze how each punch performs attacking those areas rating them on 1) how much damage they caused and 2) how much damage was sustained to the puncher. Once you have this data one or a few will stand out and more than likely one punch will take the cake on the "best" general punch. So, after you have done this across the board you have the most basic set and everything after that is flavor and opinion.

Good luck with that.

Seriously? An example: the foreknuckle punch to the solar plexus. Let's take two styles, and, just to make it easy, we'll make them both Okinawan: Goju ryu and Isshin ryu. After we run them through your little data matrix, are we to fail one practitioner over the other on this portion of their "Universal black belt" examination because they do it differently from the accepted way?

.To think you could surmise what I was after or any kind of context from my posting as simple as it was is well - your just jumping to conclusions.

 

[Chris Parker]

Let's see, how can someone with years of experience ask a QUESTION about an IDEA to see what people think? I guess it is because all of my years of training have taught me to be open-minded and search for NEW things, not to be closed minded and dogmatic.

Why take a shot at me with the "so called many years" statement? Does the idea attack your rigid thinking this much that you need to go after me personally?

I really don't think it was a personal attack, Jason. More a statement of observation. Namely that people with a quarter of the experience you claim can see the immediate issues with the idea which makes the very premise of your concept flat out impossible. Those reasons have been detailed ad nauseum throughout the thread, really.

You say it is great to debate and keep open minds while at the same time attacking the idea of debating certain things and keeping an open mind on them. Well then I guess the debate and minds in the debate are only as open as your view is wide.

Without meaning you to take this personally, there is a saying, used by a number of people (Tim Minchin is a favoured one for me), which essentially is: Don't keep such an open mind your brains fall out.

In other words, there's such a thing as being too open minded, being willing to entertain too many ideas, and having no real critical thinking process that filters out genuine discussion and debate from things which have no basis being floated in the first place.

How can I say what I did about the punches, because for the most part I have found it to be true. Maybe your experience is different and so you have a different idea about things but that does not mean that others with different ideas are wrong. Even if someone has an idea that is different from the crowd it does not necessarily make that person wrong, just different.

Except, in this case, you are wrong. Your experience, if it is genuinely as you state (note: that does not imply you don't have the training you say, it's more saying that you might not have picked up on the actual teachings, or that a number of your teachers might have more shaped what they showed you to what you were already doing, rather than giving you their actual versions... if you're looking at modern systems, or just wanting to learn to "fight", then that's quite possibly the way it happened), should have shown you a huge number of problems with that concept in the first place. I teach and train a number of very closely related systems, and each have some very different ideas of pretty much every single aspect of something as simple as how to punch. If you haven't come across this idea, I really have doubts how much you've genuinely learnt of the systems you've trained in.

The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end.
So, you are saying that all punches have similarities then. Great. Now, just determine the preferred striking areas and then you analyze how each punch performs attacking those areas rating them on 1) how much damage they caused and 2) how much damage was sustained to the puncher. Once you have this data one or a few will stand out and more than likely one punch will take the cake on the "best" general punch. So, after you have done this across the board you have the most basic set and everything after that is flavor and opinion.

Come on, Jason, that's like saying that you can give a review of all books, because they all have pages in them, therefore they're all similar.

If you're going to insist on this, though, I again suggest you go back to the questions I had on punching, which should illustrate how far off you are here.

To think you could surmise what I was after or any kind of context from my posting as simple as it was is well - your just jumping to conclusions.

No, no conclusions, Jason. Observation. You floated a deeply flawed idea that has no basis in even the most fundamental understanding of martial arts, and we all stated that. We don't need to jump to any conclusions, we just need to read the post.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Good luck with that.

Seriously? An example: the foreknuckle punch to the solar plexus. Let's take two styles, and, just to make it easy, we'll make them both Okinawan: Goju ryu and Isshin ryu. After we run them through your little data matrix, are we to fail one practitioner over the other on this portion of their "Universal black belt" examination because they do it differently from the accepted way?
View attachment 17188

Yes. That's the idea of a Universal curricula isn't it? That's not to say that one style or the other is wrong, its just a way to develop a basic set of techniques and to provide a good base to grow from.

 

[elder999]

Yes. That's the idea of a Universal curricula isn't it? That's not to say that one style or the other is wrong, its just a way to develop a basic set of techniques and to provide a good base to grow from.

If you've determined that there's a "universal" way to form a fist, all others are "wrong," as in not part of a "good base to grow from." Likewise with other fundamentals. So, if it couldn't include Isshin ryu shodans, because they make a fist "wrong," and their fist and arm position at the end of a strike is "wrong," and their hip placement is "wrong," and their shoulder placement is 'wrong," then it wouldn't be a very "Universal" black belt, would it?


Likewise, if it couldn't include Goju ryu shodans, because they make a fist "wrong," and their fist and arm position at the end of a strike is "wrong," and their hip placement is "wrong," and their shoulder placement is 'wrong," then it wouldn't be a very "Universal" black belt, would it?



So you've pretty much answered your question for yourself, and that answer is no.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Namely that people with a quarter of the experience you claim can see the immediate issues with the idea which makes the very premise of your concept flat out impossible. Don't keep such an open mind your brains fall out. In other words, there's such a thing as being too open minded, being willing to entertain too many ideas, and having no real critical thinking process that filters out genuine discussion and debate from things which have no basis being floated in the first place. Except, in this case, you are wrong. If you haven't come across this idea, I really have doubts how much you've genuinely learnt of the systems you've trained in. Come on, Jason, that's like saying that you can give a review of all books, because they all have pages in them, therefore they're all similar. You floated a deeply flawed idea that has no basis in even the most fundamental understanding of martial arts, and we all stated that. We don't need to jump to any conclusions, we just need to read the post.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.

Its just an idea to talk about Chris, it does not give anyone any insightful idea about my experience or understanding. It is correct to doubt the idea and find it flawed, it is deeply over-reaching to make assumptions about the one who posed the hypothetical question based on the merits or lack concerning the question itself.

You don't like the idea. I got it. Thanks.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Ok,

I would like to SINCERELY thank everyone (including Chris) for the responses to this "idea." Mind you it was/is not something I had nor have I ever had it was something I heard discussed once and was curious to see how you all felt about it.

Can there be a Universal Black Belt? NO!!!!

I don't think a single person gave it a chance. WOW!

As I read through this and my efforts to fight for the idea it made me think of this clip and I am in tears laughing at work, hope you all enjoy it as much;

Sincerely thankful,


Jason Brinn