Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

[Tony Dismukes]

So, you are saying that all punches have similarities then. Great. Now, just determine the preferred striking areas and then you analyze how each punch performs attacking those areas rating them on 1) how much damage they caused and 2) how much damage was sustained to the puncher. Once you have this data one or a few will stand out and more than likely one punch will take the cake on the "best" general punch. So, after you have done this across the board you have the most basic set and everything after that is flavor and opinion.

Jason, back on page 6 of this thread I offered a detailed explanation of the difficulties of this approach and the fact that at the end of the process you would have just created a new (non-universal) style with trade-offs just like any other style. You thanked me for that post and called it "well thought out, very honest and very true." Have you reconsidered your opinion of my analysis? If so, can you explain where you find flaws in my reasoning?

 

[jasonbrinn]

Jason, back on page 6 of this thread I offered a detailed explanation of the difficulties of this approach and the fact that at the end of the process you would have just created a new (non-universal) style with trade-offs just like any other style. You thanked me for that post and called it "well thought out, very honest and very true." Have you reconsidered your opinion of my analysis? If so, can you explain where you find flaws in my reasoning?

No. You were right then and you are right now. A Universal Black Belt if one could ever exist, which I don't personally believe it could, would have to do just what you say - create a new style in the end. Your reasoning is sound and your approach and remarks greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

The quote you took was me unsuccessfully trying to argue in favor of how the idea could be realized.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ah, so your latest comments were just trying to explain what your original thoughts were when you first started the thread. It kind of seemed that you were still trying to defend those ideas as being correct. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Can there be a Universal Black Belt?

Let me think...no

Since the majority of Chinese martial arts styles do not even use a belt ranking system a black belt would not apply.

I would agree as one fo the systems I teach, does not have a ranking system. It woudl be very difficult to make common.


1) Is Common or Universal?
Try to find common traits in all arts and have that be the teachings?
Or encompass all arts teachings and then make sure you have all of them understood?

2) Some systems start with weapons and teach empty hand off of that, other start with empty hands and add weapons as specific, some start with weapons and never teach empty hands and some start with empty hands and never teach weapons.
How would this be addressed?


Go back and talk to your friends about a utopia while drinking (if legel) a good beer around a table or camp fire. Good friends and good beer are things to share.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I could see such a thing happening for instructors if it martial arts instruction came to be regulated by the government.


It would suck.

I actually exchanged some e-mails with a NY State Legislator on this topic when they were discussing it. I brought up some of the issue with my other post and the politics of the boards and people of different arts playing favorites and bribes and such.

In the end "IT WOULD SUCK" to put it mildly.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Seriously...?

College's and most areas, SCRATCH THAT, all areas of science operate in such a manner and yet they have much more defined, refined and professional industries supported by them.

People go to college and get some kind of generic initial degree, such as BA arts or BS in science and then within or after that study they go onto have some specialized field. This provides the entire community that participates some kind of point of balance throughout. Provided their are governing bodies to maintain the standard across all institutions then everyone can at least rest assured that the basics everyone teaches are sound and then they can choose to argue after that point if they need to.

Also, by having this kind of thing in place it allows for consistency, quality and progress. Wouldn't it be nice if every art had SOUND concepts of dealing with ground conflict, knife conflict, punching & Kicking, etc. Wouldn't this make us all better in the end?

And for those of you who might say but what if I don't agree with the "standard" teaching on punching & kicking? Fine, at least everyone knows you understand the basics that are agreed by the majority and are choosing to go your own way.

Is this really so offensive an idea?

Jason, so your are saying that a person with a BA in English can do the job of a BS in Electrical Engineering or Computer Science? Or to be fair let us say compare a Psychology BS to the other BS I mentioned. They are not the same. They are not equivalent.

Some colleges have exit exams to make your Degree valid. Others have standard exams offered by accreditation organizations, but the tests are different from one degree to another. Some do not have these the school or university are accreditated.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Jason, so your are saying that a person with a BA in English can do the job of a BS in Electrical Engineering or Computer Science? Or to be fair let us say compare a Psychology BS to the other BS I mentioned. They are not the same. They are not equivalent.

Some colleges have exit exams to make your Degree valid. Others have standard exams offered by accreditation organizations, but the tests are different from one degree to another. Some do not have these the school or university are accreditated.

Rich,

I was just trying to say that even degrees of different disciplines share some core initial college work load for the most part, nothing more.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Not to mention that a BS degree from University to University and College to College is not all that Generic. The Curriculum for a BS in Chemistry at Harvard is not the same as a BS in Chemistry at MIT nor is it the same ay SUNY Buffalo, UMass, Michigan State, Yale or UCLA either

Heck even within the same college it can very a great amount.

I took Numerical Analysis, and AI and SImulation and Modeling, and other math based CS courses with my Math Minor, while another woman in the program at the same time, took compiler theory, and ethics, and other non math courses and only too the minimum required. We both graduated with the same degree and one would have to check the transcripts to get that I had a math minor and differnent classes. We both ended up working at the same place. I hit the grourd running, and 9 months later she was still in training and not doing well.

 

[lklawson]

The only similarity is "you stick your arm out, with your fist on the end of it and try to connect to your opponents face" That's were the similarities end.
So, you are saying that all punches have similarities then. Great. Now, just determine the preferred striking areas and then you analyze how each punch performs attacking those areas rating them on 1) how much damage they caused and 2) how much damage was sustained to the puncher. Once you have this data one or a few will stand out and more than likely one punch will take the cake on the "best" general punch. So, after you have done this across the board you have the most basic set and everything after that is flavor and opinion.

This is completely at odds with your original assertion of a "Universal Black Belt" who has a solid, if basic, understanding of the various methods of [fill in the blank].

Let's isolate it to "punching" since that seems to be where you/most-responders want to go. You are suggesting weeding out some punching methods based on 2 criteria that are important to you, how much "damage" caused and how much "damage" sustained. However, those may not be the most important consideration in the system which spawned any given punching technique. For instance, it ignores speed of delivery, distance of delivery, targeting, and many other important factors which are often different based on the circumstances of the "fight" at hand. Those include many varying components such as what "stance" the opponent is in (what "guard" he is using), what footwork one is available or one is capable of (do you have a broken foot, is the ground smooth and flat with firm footing, is the ground uneven, is it icy or slick footing, etc.), what guard/stance you are using, etc. And even those are variable. For instance, when grappling is available, stances tend to be extended and distances tend to be pushed out. You end up with a stance more similar to modern MMA or historic London Prize Ring boxing stances. This dramatically affects what punches will be best suited to be delivered from that stance. There's a reason that the punches used in modern boxing, with hand-wraps and large/heavy gloves, are different from that of MMA, which are different again from that of historic bare-knuckle boxing. Those punching methods were developed and optimized for the environments which they evolved in.

Of course, you may want to try to restrict it to "street fighting" since that seems to interest you most. However, be aware that not everyone is in agreement with you that "street fighting" is the penultimate goal of any given martial art. And, again, of course, it still doesn't take into account differences in terrain, opponents, or personal situations. Is it extremely cold out and your opponent wearing heavy, cushy clothing? Is dueling with weapons common in that culture and the opponent may be wearing some form of stiff/hard body armor? Do you really want to try punching a modern "Warfighter" in the gut if he's wearing a full vest with trauma plates?

No, I'm sorry but your two pronged "best" punch criteria is laughably simplistic.

 

[jasonbrinn]

This is completely at odds with your original assertion of a "Universal Black Belt" who has a solid, if basic, understanding of the various methods of [fill in the blank].

Let's isolate it to "punching" since that seems to be where you/most-responders want to go. You are suggesting weeding out some punching methods based on 2 criteria that are important to you, how much "damage" caused and how much "damage" sustained. However, those may not be the most important consideration in the system which spawned any given punching technique. For instance, it ignores speed of delivery, distance of delivery, targeting, and many other important factors which are often different based on the circumstances of the "fight" at hand. Those include many varying components such as what "stance" the opponent is in (what "guard" he is using), what footwork one is available or one is capable of (do you have a broken foot, is the ground smooth and flat with firm footing, is the ground uneven, is it icy or slick footing, etc.), what guard/stance you are using, etc. And even those are variable. For instance, when grappling is available, stances tend to be extended and distances tend to be pushed out. You end up with a stance more similar to modern MMA or historic London Prize Ring boxing stances. This dramatically affects what punches will be best suited to be delivered from that stance. There's a reason that the punches used in modern boxing, with hand-wraps and large/heavy gloves, are different from that of MMA, which are different again from that of historic bare-knuckle boxing. Those punching methods were developed and optimized for the environments which they evolved in.

Of course, you may want to try to restrict it to "street fighting" since that seems to interest you most. However, be aware that not everyone is in agreement with you that "street fighting" is the penultimate goal of any given martial art. And, again, of course, it still doesn't take into account differences in terrain, opponents, or personal situations. Is it extremely cold out and your opponent wearing heavy, cushy clothing? Is dueling with weapons common in that culture and the opponent may be wearing some form of stiff/hard body armor? Do you really want to try punching a modern "Warfighter" in the gut if he's wearing a full vest with trauma plates?

No, I'm sorry but your two pronged "best" punch criteria is laughably simplistic.

 

[Rich Parsons]

...
Rank is irrelevant except as a marker of skill from an authority independent of the rank holder (that's why self-appointed ranks are meaningless).
...

Mr Lawson,

Sorry for the possible off topic question.

If a system does not have a ranking system, and no certification paperwork, and uses word of mouth and the instructor telling the student they are ready to teach, is this a self appointed rank?

Also if others call you by a title based upon your skills demonstrated to them directly is that a self appointed rank or title as well?

This is not a baiting question sir. I am honestly interested in your point of view on this.

Thanks

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yes. That's the idea of a Universal curricula isn't it? That's not to say that one style or the other is wrong, its just a way to develop a basic set of techniques and to provide a good base to grow from.

System A teaches method Z for a punch and System B teaches Method Y for a punch.

Method Z and Y are mutually exclusive. i.e. a punch with index or point finger and middle finger (* also called pointer finger in some cultures - can we get this standardized please? *) versus the Pinky and the ring and the middle fingers.

Choose a method at random. Flip a coin.

Method Z has been chosen for our universal requirements.

All those who teach Method Y are expected to drop their teachings and start to teach Method Z.


I do not like this, so I break away and will continue to teach the old ways, as the way I was taught. You can go do what you want. I do not care if my students are not considered a universal black belt. They will have the technique properly for the system I teach.

 

[Cyriacus]

And Simplicity doesnt mean being minimalistic to the point of ignoring the need for more information.

 

[elder999]

And Simplicity doesnt mean being minimalistic to the point of ignoring the need for more information.

There's all kinds of "simple."

View attachment $still retarded.jpg

 

[James Kovacich]

Can we vote now for the title holder of Universal Grandmaster?

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

[Cyriacus]

There's all kinds of "simple."

View attachment 17191

True

 

[jasonbrinn]

There's all kinds of "simple."

 

[jasonbrinn]

 

[K-man]

I think he must be talking about Ueshiba.

 

[lklawson]

That's nice.

Any other overly simplistic platitudes you'd like to add?