Steve
Mostly Harmless
This hits the nail on the head.
Common expressions that are wrong....
- Thread starter Jared Traveler
- Start date
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
"the plural of anecdote is not data" is a famous misquote that everyone seems to love, even though it's obviously not true.
Forget where I learned the true quote is the exact opposite, but I know it was during a martial arts discussion. Probably about Wing Chun.
Forget where I learned the true quote is the exact opposite, but I know it was during a martial arts discussion. Probably about Wing Chun.
When someone says,
- "If you have any question, you should ask your teacher. Don't expect to obtain any useful information online.", what he means is he doesn't want to share information with you.
- "As long as you are happy, that's all that matters.", what he means is he doesn't want to have any further discussion with you.
- "It's not safe to go to the Central Park.", what he means is it's not safe for everybody in Central; Park when you go over there.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think @drop bear posted it around here a while back when someone misused it.
Not only that, but police must abide by strict rules of engagement. An example would be, In our class when we call out a head shot, they go for the shoulder/clavicle. Head shots are a big no no’s. They are very cognizant of the magnifying glass that they are under. Amazingly enough, they choose to serve anyway.
Do you have a source for this?
In the becoming a cop requirements are almost nonexistent. Most states require more training to cut hair than required to be a cop. Example in Iowa hair stylist, 2100 hours training vs 520 hours training to be a cop.
Most cops can’t fight, and the number of abuse of force complaints, would indicate most cops don’t know the law. That’s not getting into the general lack of knowledge of citizen’s rights.
HI has no training requirements, some states you can be a cop for 18 months no academy training, many states 12 months, and even more states 6 months.
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Oily Dragon
Senior Master
That's a lot of mosts.
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Jared Traveler
2nd Black Belt
I'm not suggesting cops are experts at citizens rights, or that they are great at fighting, or that they are experts at self-defense. Regarding use of force complaints, your assumptions are indeed conclusions based on your assumptions.Do you have a source for this?
In the becoming a cop requirements are almost nonexistent. Most states require more training to cut hair than required to be a cop. Example in Iowa hair stylist, 2100 hours training vs 520 hours training to be a cop.
Most cops can’t fight, and the number of abuse of force complaints, would indicate most cops don’t know the law. That’s not getting into the general lack of knowledge of citizen’s rights.
HI has no training requirements, some states you can be a cop for 18 months no academy training, many states 12 months, and even more states 6 months.
The things I mentioned are indeed police training, and duties and responsibilities 101. Day one stuff you are expected to be doing once you leave the academy. Any random episode of cops will reveal that these are things cops do on a daily basis. That's true regardless of how long someone trains to cut hair.
Jared Traveler
2nd Black Belt
It is true cops operate under a magnifying glass. But head shots are not no no's for cops. They are allowed. What strick rules of engagement are you referring to?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Wait. What? You posted a several hundred word, highly sarcastic post in response to me asserting that all cops are exactly those things. Come on, man.
Jared Traveler
2nd Black Belt
Not experts. Knowledgeable more than most in the areas I mentioned.
I wrote in the context of FMA. Baton and head shots, it would be considered deadly force. They would have to prove that their life was in immediate danger. Same with carotid submissions, it’s not that it is illegal, but they better be able to justify all they do. Virtually, every situation is now caught on camera. It ain’t 1940’s NY where officer O’Mally gets to crack you in the head for talking back…and in some neighborhoods, the magnifying glass is bigger than in others.
Jared Traveler
2nd Black Belt
That's true a baton to the head is considered lethal force. But that is true regardless if you are a cop or non law enforcement personnel. Also you are right, many things are in camera. Also people are more than willing to complain, even if the officer did nothing wrong. Being able to articulate why, is an important part of using force.
In the old days, sometimes force used was "instructive" or "punitive", while there are legit moral arguments against this type of force, it had some upsides, however this application of force is no longer tolerated(and it shouldn't be tolerated). Making cops better today at applying moral and legal use of force than in times past.
When people on the outside looking in sometimes get confused is the fact that most of the time when cops use force it is to "control and restrain" a party that is passively resisting, or actively resisting, verses assaulting an officer. Under these conditions the officer is restrained from doing a lot of things because he is not actively being assaulted, but must take physical control of a resisting suspect.
With that said, in these situations there is still possible great risk to the officer. Perhaps during the struggle for control the suspect becomes assaultive, and/or produces a weapon, threats from traffic, threats from other family members and friends, extra.....
If there’s a deadly force threat police can take a baton to suspect’s head. If there’s no deadly force threat they can’t…because hitting someone in the head with a metal stick is something a reasonable person knows or should know can cause death or serious/grave bodily harm…
The same thing applies to civilians. If someone takes a swing at you and dome them with a metal stick without a VERY good reason, you’re probably going to go to jail.
Personally, what counts as ‘nothing wrong’ is often very wrong in my opinion.
A dude fired 1 shot out his car window during a high speed chase, got out and ran on foot. He was shot something like 90 times in the back. It was deemed a justified shooting because he fired a shot a minute or more before that, despite no immediate threat to anyone.
I’m of the opinion that if you cannot confirm 100% a suspect is a deadly force threat, then you shouldn’t be using deadly force as a cop. And if someone is uncomfortable with that I don’t believe they should be a cop. Both tamir rice and philando Castile would be alive today, along with god knows how many others, and if they wouldn’t be their killers would at least suffer some consequences.
What do you mean by confirm 100% a suspect is a deadly force threat? That there is a threat deadly force will occur, or that it definitely will occur if deadly force is not used against them first.
To me, the first is a deadly force threat-that you confirm they have the means and motive to apply deadly force against you. Which in the situation you listed, would count as a deadly force threat to me. They are aware this person has a gun that he is willing to shoot, to assist him in getting away. If they then chase him on foot, he now has an easier way to try and incapacitate them then he did in the car, so logic would dictate that he may try to (or successfully) shoot the cop again. Even if the cop does not chase after him, there is still a chance he will shoot back to keep them from doing so, potentially killing someone there again. With both means and motive, and the added proof of conviction, that does seem justified to me.
I mean suspect safety trumps officer safety in my opinion. Police don’t get to make mistakes in regards to using deadly force. If a cop shoots an unarmed citizen, or a kid with a toy gun, they should be fired.
Cop is a job people choose to do. Innocent people don’t choose to be shot because a coward was a little scared doing the job they chose.
How is someone running away,
unarmed, and obviously not shooting an immediate deadly threat exactly? That’s part of deadly force use…immediate threat, but it doesn’t matter if he shot previously. No cops returned fire then, but when his back was turned and running like 12 cops did a mag dump.
