Common Core for MA, SD Instruction?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, there would have to be a vehicle that allows for the things you mentioned. Similar to the fitness instructor, trainer models, the law doesn't require credentials, but it is a key element to a successful business.

Fitness instructor certification can be had online for a nominal fee, so that's not the model I'd look to.

However, I think having some standard certification for an instructor (that they know how to teach, have had a background check, etc.) is more realistic than anything to do with the material taught.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the best case scenario, it would be a body from within the MA community. Self regulating, not government ran. Pie in the sky, probably but if it starts the conversation and shores up our eroding community I am all for it. I picture something akin to the CFR. Expansive in category and very specific in topic so it would cover all the mainstream styles. Not a big government proponent at all.

CFR?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even tanning salons are required to have a license in the window.

Equipment safety, exposure levels, and such. Not sure that has much relevance to MA.

 

[skribs]

I see several issues with the government regulating the classes...

1. What is your goal? As others have said, if your goal is to become an Olympic wrestler, to learn flashy moves for Hollywood, or to learn to fight on the street, the courses are going to be vastly different.
2. How old are your students? Are you teaching 4 & 5 year olds respect and patience? Are you teaching teenagers self discipline and self control? Are you teaching young adults to fight? Are you teaching old adults how to stay in shape mentally and physically?
3. Who gets to determine what are "good" and "bad" techniques, and how do they use that power?
4. Is there any consideration in this regulation for how long it takes to become proficient? Should we say that technical grappling arts that focus on joint isolation require too much time, but an art that boils down to "palm strike them in the face" is acceptable, because of the lower learning curve?

The other aspect is there are several organizations that DO regulate Martial Arts. Personally, I would expect someone who creates their own art to have some sort of credential or credibility in something else, that they then branched off of to make their own.

• Bruce Lee making JKD, he had the reputation as one of the hardest working Martial Artists.
• Many major martial arts are taken from other countries and slightly refined to create their own. See: Hapkido from Aikido, Karate from Kung Fu, Tang Soo Do (and Taekwondo) from Karate, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from Judo, etc.
• Many martial arts are developed for militaries, such as Krav Maga and Combatives. These are generally taught by trained killers, so something tells me they'll work
• Chuck Norris created Chun Kuk Do, but he's also a 9th degree in Tang Soo Do, 8th degree in Tae Kwon Do, 5th degree in karate, 3rd degree in BJJ, and black belt in Judo. Plus, he was very successful competitively.
• Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is highly recognized with Royce Gracie and his success in UFC.

So, if I were to create Skrib-Jutsu, where I am currently a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo and an orange belt in Hapkido, it probably wouldn't carry much weight. I would proudly display my certificates and people would come to the conclusion that I'm an okay Taekwondoist but not really much of a martial arts master.

On the other hand, if I did this after getting my 5th degree in Taekwondo, my 2nd or 3rd degree in Hapkido, and maybe ranked 1st degree in another art (like Jiu-Jitsu), then Skribs-Jutsu might hold some weight. Not on its own, and not on my word, but based on the certificates I hold from other established arts.

 

[wab25]

My issue with a "Common Core" is that there is not a "Common Core" for all arts. Sure, there are a bunch of arts that study very similar katas / forms. But that list does not include all martial arts.

The "Core" of an art is the stuff they teach you first... for the first 6 months to a year. For Judo, Jujitsu: falling, Karate: stances, Aikido:blending, BJJ: ground fighting, boxing: footwork... These are not the same or common at all. If you went to a BJJ school, but had to learn a karate front stance, back stance and 3 katas... all that would do is hold you back from learning BJJ. The stuff they teach first, is the base they need you to have, to build on. As you build, your base gets stronger, better and more technical.

Heck, Iaido might start by learning to properly hold, care and transport your sword...

If you are worried about having certificates that mean something, find an art with a large organization. Make sure you agree with that organizations method for handing out certificates. But, in the end you have to realize... outside that organization, it really means nothing. The best you can do, is to be honest with yourself and with your students / prospective students. The best instructors I have ever trained with, in many arts, usually turn out to be the humblest people I have ever met. They realize that they don't need to hide behind a paper or belt or organization. They also realize, their are other people out there also doing really good stuff... and that there is a lot more to learn.

This does make matters a bit harder for the newbies. But the best thing we can do, is to be honest with them. They might not know much about the arts... but most people will eventually smell out a rat. (some sooner than others) By being honest about who and what you are and what you offer, you can help potential students find the path they are looking for. Hopefully, they will eventually appreciate your honesty and help.

 

[Buka]

An organization that oversees Martial Arts schools. Hmm. There has to be a worse idea in life, there just has to be.

Maybe have it politically based, steeped in deep religious fervor. Run by chimpanzees, of course. Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[JowGaWolf]

An organization that oversees Martial Arts schools. Hmm. There has to be a worse idea in life, there just has to be.

Yep these already exists and the bottom can't do anything without the approval of the top. Sometimes it's good but other times it's really bad and it breeds Ego issues. The good thing is that many of these organizations are optional so if you don't want to be a part of it then you don't have to.

The key is to find one that is more in line with how you think Martial Arts schools should be.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yep these already exists and the bottom can't do anything without the approval of the top. Sometimes it's good but other times it's really bad and it breeds Ego issues. The good thing is that many of these organizations are optional so if you don't want to be a part of it then you don't have to.

The key is to find one that is more in line with how you think Martial Arts schools should be.

And then hope anyone you train who wants to teach agrees with your philosophies in that regard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

An organization that oversees Martial Arts schools. Hmm. There has to be a worse idea in life, there just has to be.

Maybe have it politically based, steeped in deep religious fervor. Run by chimpanzees, of course. Yeah, that's the ticket.

It can't really be that bad, can it? I mean, large MA organizations manage to work without politics and egos getting involved....right?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And then hope anyone you train who wants to teach agrees with your philosophies in that regard.

If I was in an organization (and I've considered it - I miss being part of one sometimes), and I trained someone who had a different approach/philosophy than me, I'd suggest they find an organization that better suits them. No sense them hanging out where they don't feel at home, just because that's where I am.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I was in an organization (and I've considered it - I miss being part of one sometimes), and I trained someone who had a different approach/philosophy than me, I'd suggest they find an organization that better suits them. No sense them hanging out where they don't feel at home, just because that's where I am.

Yep. There will never be a once size fits all solution for an organization.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yep. There will never be a once size fits all solution for an organization.

At which point, it becomes impossible to have an overall 'standard' for ma, or even for a style

 

[dvcochran]

Many styles do focus on self defense scenarios. Many don't and are more competition/sport focused. I don't think you can say all martial arts are self defense, because I'm sure not all martial arts are necessarily self defense. Boxing, for example, probably isn't the best martial art to choose for self defense. In an unexpected situation, you'd probably do far more than punching.

From a truth in advertising point?
There is already laws regarding false information in adverts (negligent and fraudulent misrepresentation), however, for many martial arts it may be difficult to determine from a legal standpoint if something is in breach of those regulations.


"I feel it defames all MA when someone promotes themselves to a high rank or comes with a new MA style and starts promoting it as "the best". It is also extremely dangerous for those thinking they are getting quality SD training."

While I agree with you here, I do not think there is much that can be done about it. Apart from advising people to make sure they know their training is of a good standard.

There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing.

 

[hoshin1600]

This concept makes my skin crawl. There could be nothing worse, like Buka said.
It's to early right now for my brain to give in depth answers. What this question is primarily doing is ...the socialization of martial arts. Trading in the sovereign individual for group identity and inclusion. When one group holds all the power, what has history shown us what happens to those outside the group ? Conformity is nothing new in MA. Do you like modern Wushu? Well that's what your allowed to train in communist China. It should be understood that the regulating group would need Government backing for ant type of legitimacy even if the board was made of martial artists. It would then make All other versions and free will illegal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This concept makes my skin crawl. There could be nothing worse, like Buka said.
It's to early right now for my brain to give in depth answers. What this question is primarily doing is ...the socialization of martial arts. Trading in the sovereign individual for group identity and inclusion. When one group holds all the power, what has history shown us what happens to those outside the group ? Conformity is nothing new in MA. Do you like modern Wushu? Well that's what your allowed to train in communist China. It should be understood that the regulating group would need Government backing for ant type of legitimacy even if the board was made of martial artists. It would then make All other versions and free will illegal.

I don't know that it inherently has to get that bad. Looking back, the OP was mainly targeting self-defense schools, which does give some common needs. I could see some very basic requirements - and even some basic information coverage - being implemented. I don't know how to avoid the issues government regulation would create, so I'd want it to be a non-governmental base. Yes, that'd make it non-mandatory. Unfortunately, that might make it nothing more than an Association, unless it got some real traction (and with it, perhaps some expectation among students that a school ought to be approved). And if it did get real traction, it'd likely (even if non-profit) turn into a fee-bearing obstacle for new schools. But if we ignore those last two sentences, here are some things I think most folks teaching SD wouldn't object to:

• Basic background checks
• A "must cover this" knowledge curriculum, with available material based on research (avoidance, violence cues, de-escalation, etc.)
• A list of "common" attacks/scenarios to learn to defend (takedown, punches, etc. - no detail on HOW to defend, but WHAT to defend)

That's about it. Going much beyond that, you're starting to dictate style and approach, and it'd start to favor styles then (probably based upon whoever drew it up). The only other level I could see adding would be some basic instructor training - pedagogical methods and such, separate from their technique training. That could also include handling emotional situations during training (these are not exactly rare in SD, among folks who've survived something).

For me, the real benefit of something like this would be that all the instructors would have access to some information not commonly found in MA associations. It wouldn't stop instructors from training with poor training tools (light-resistance scenarios, only, for instance). It wouldn't really ensure techniques taught actually work (we all know how hard that is to define) or are taught properly. So it wouldn't really get to the OP's intended purpose, but done right it might provide benefit.

Of course, the real problem is that we've all seen how easily politics within an organization can derail it from its purpose. And how money (a necessary resource for any association) can mess up the mission - groups can get so involved in wanting to do more and be more, they forget how onerous their fees can become for members.

 

[oftheherd1]

For me personally I wouldn't like any standards that would prevent me from progression or even experimentation of an application or fight theory. That would just drive nuts. I couldn't see the standards going beyond basics. Even with basics it becomes an issue of basics that apply to all fighting systems. Karate basics are not the same as tkd basics.

Yes. Whose standards are going to win out? If we allow for instance, a HKD and JGW blend, who insures I know the JGW techniques well enough to teach, and vice versa?

Pretty much what I think Frank Raud is saying beloe.

What would be a common core between judo and TKD? Too many variables in various martial arts to say that there is a common core in all martial arts. Regulation? You want government officials with no knowledge of any martial art deciding what constitutes a martial art? Or possibly worse, someone with extensive knowledge of one art dictating how another art must be performed?

Also, will there be a standard for a graduation? Who will police that?

Perhaps a nice idea. But difficult to impossible to actually do.

 

[dvcochran]

This concept makes my skin crawl. There could be nothing worse, like Buka said.
It's to early right now for my brain to give in depth answers. What this question is primarily doing is ...the socialization of martial arts. Trading in the sovereign individual for group identity and inclusion. When one group holds all the power, what has history shown us what happens to those outside the group ? Conformity is nothing new in MA. Do you like modern Wushu? Well that's what your allowed to train in communist China. It should be understood that the regulating group would need Government backing for ant type of legitimacy even if the board was made of martial artists. It would then make All other versions and free will illegal.

I hear your concerns. The goal is not to conform any style and certainly not to socialize. The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity . Even tanning salons have to have a license in their window. The verbiage could not be style specific, but instead really big picture of what are the minimum requirements for a dojo/Dojang, program inclusion, certification,
fill in the blanks, etc... I welcome your thoughts & ideas.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hear your concerns. The goal is not to conform any style and certainly not to socialize. The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity . Even tanning salons have to have a license in their window. The verbiage could not be style specific, but instead really big picture of what are the minimum requirements for a dojo/Dojang, program inclusion, certification,
fill in the blanks, etc... I welcome your thoughts & ideas.

Unfortunately, even that goal is probably only achievable in theory. We could require some training and certification in pedagogy, but beyond that we'd be getting into validation of styles, schools, and associations - and that's where it gets all sticky.

 

[hoshin1600]

I hear your concerns. The goal is not to conform any style and certainly not to socialize. The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity . Even tanning salons have to have a license in their window. The verbiage could not be style specific, but instead really big picture of what are the minimum requirements for a dojo/Dojang, program inclusion, certification,
fill in the blanks, etc... I welcome your thoughts & ideas.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

i dont think many here would argue that we want more "knuckle head instructors" but the issue is, that someone has to determine who and what constitutes a knuckle head. for that you need a board, who sits on the board?
like i said if there is a board then that board needs Government backing otherwise it is like Gerry said and its just another organization and we already have more of those than we need in self defense.
the problem itself is the board and their oversight. as history has shown as soon as you have a board *(more so with government backing) you will have corruption and government over reach.
the boards first priority is not those that it over see's but rather its own self interest. those in power want to stay in power.
lets use this Martial Talk group as an example (sorry people im going to have some fun at your expense)

• @gpseymour is going to push for @AngryHobbit to also be on the board so that his vote is doubled in his favor.
• I am going to push for continuous training in things like Neuroscience, Ethology, Biomechanics ect.. so this will inflate the costs to the instructors and Schools.
• @Tez3 will want to mandate that only women instructors can teach female students.
• @drop bear will still hold his opinion that the only answer to everything is "Do MMA" .
• The government will then get a complaint from a disgruntled mother about her child and the Government will mandate a Social Justice Human Rights committee be put in place (with that mother as one of the three on the committee) as a result Drop bear will be pulled in front of the SJW tribunal for promoting "Toxic Masculinity" he will then be fined and barred from teaching ever again (since his licence will be pulled) and that will be the end of drop bear AND ALL OF MMA.
• equality of outcome will be the law of the land and everyone will get a black belt based on 1000 hours of training.
• Me and Gerry will quit and Angry hobbit will be even more angry. we we be replaced by candidates "approved" by the Human Rights committee to allow for equal representation on the board assuring inclusivity of all 74 genders and ethnicities and every minority group.

so the point is once you create something like this you have no control of the end result. you've basically created a Frankenstein monster that you have no control of.

 

[jobo]

I hear your concerns. The goal is not to conform any style and certainly not to socialize. The intent is more about quality of instruction and certification, to weed out the knucklehead "instructors", hopefully remove some of the social and verbal inaccuracies leading to bad reputation for all MA, and improve confidence in choosing it as an activity . Even tanning salons have to have a license in their window. The verbiage could not be style specific, but instead really big picture of what are the minimum requirements for a dojo/Dojang, program inclusion, certification,
fill in the blanks, etc... I welcome your thoughts & ideas.

I though your first post was tongue in cheek, but it seems your serious,
SO
Are you trying to measure inputs or out puts, your tanning example measures inputs, the nature of the tubes, maintenance, supervisors understanding, no one comes to measure if you got the tan you wanted.

You can set criteria for dojos, instructers, Knowledge, etc,but that in no ways means that they will be capable ma at the end, if you don't measure outputs, you have no way of knowing if your inputs are the correct ones