Common Core for MA, SD Instruction?

[Gerry Seymour]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

i dont think many here would argue that we want more "knuckle head instructors" but the issue is, that someone has to determine who and what constitutes a knuckle head. for that you need a board, who sits on the board?
like i said if there is a board then that board needs Government backing otherwise it is like Gerry said and its just another organization and we already have more of those than we need in self defense.
the problem itself is the board and their oversight. as history has shown as soon as you have a board *(more so with government backing) you will have corruption and government over reach.
the boards first priority is not those that it over see's but rather its own self interest. those in power want to stay in power.
lets use this Martial Talk group as an example (sorry people im going to have some fun at your expense)

• @gpseymour is going to push for @AngryHobbit to also be on the board so that his vote is doubled in his favor.
• I am going to push for continuous training in things like Neuroscience, Ethology, Biomechanics ect.. so this will inflate the costs to the instructors and Schools.
• @Tez3 will want to mandate that only women instructors can teach female students.
• @drop bear will still hold his opinion that the only answer to everything is "Do MMA" .
• The government will then get a complaint from a disgruntled mother about her child and the Government will mandate a Social Justice Human Rights committee be put in place (with that mother as one of the three on the committee) as a result Drop bear will be pulled in front of the SJW tribunal for promoting "Toxic Masculinity" he will then be fined and barred from teaching ever again (since his licence will be pulled) and that will be the end of drop bear AND ALL OF MMA.
• equality of outcome will be the law of the land and everyone will get a black belt based on 1000 hours of training.
• Me and Gerry will quit and Angry hobbit will be even more angry. we we be replaced by candidates "approved" by the Human Rights committee to allow for equal representation on the board assuring inclusivity of all 74 genders and ethnicities and every minority group.

so the point is once you create something like this you have no control of the end result. you've basically created a Frankenstein monster that you have no control of.

That might be the best read I've had in a while, Hoshin. And a pretty good lampooning of how organizations can go bad.

 

[frank raud]

There would have to be more delineation between Martial Arts and Martial sport for one thing.

How? By defining technique? How is a punch done in a martial sport different than a punch done in a martial art?

 

[jobo]

"The road to hell is

• equality of outcome will be the law of the land and everyone will get a black belt based on 1000 hours of training.

But that's the situation now, isn't it? At least in a lot of clubs.

 

[jobo]

How? By defining technique? How is a punch done in a martial sport different than a punch done in a martial art?

There are only a limited number of effective punching techniques, and thUse That are not bIometricaly,l sound should be outlawed in my opinion

 

[AngryHobbit]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

i dont think many here would argue that we want more "knuckle head instructors" but the issue is, that someone has to determine who and what constitutes a knuckle head. for that you need a board, who sits on the board?
like i said if there is a board then that board needs Government backing otherwise it is like Gerry said and its just another organization and we already have more of those than we need in self defense.
the problem itself is the board and their oversight. as history has shown as soon as you have a board *(more so with government backing) you will have corruption and government over reach.
the boards first priority is not those that it over see's but rather its own self interest. those in power want to stay in power.
lets use this Martial Talk group as an example (sorry people im going to have some fun at your expense)

• @gpseymour is going to push for @AngryHobbit to also be on the board so that his vote is doubled in his favor.
• I am going to push for continuous training in things like Neuroscience, Ethology, Biomechanics ect.. so this will inflate the costs to the instructors and Schools.
• @Tez3 will want to mandate that only women instructors can teach female students.
• @drop bear will still hold his opinion that the only answer to everything is "Do MMA" .
• The government will then get a complaint from a disgruntled mother about her child and the Government will mandate a Social Justice Human Rights committee be put in place (with that mother as one of the three on the committee) as a result Drop bear will be pulled in front of the SJW tribunal for promoting "Toxic Masculinity" he will then be fined and barred from teaching ever again (since his licence will be pulled) and that will be the end of drop bear AND ALL OF MMA.
• equality of outcome will be the law of the land and everyone will get a black belt based on 1000 hours of training.
• Me and Gerry will quit and Angry hobbit will be even more angry. we we be replaced by candidates "approved" by the Human Rights committee to allow for equal representation on the board assuring inclusivity of all 74 genders and ethnicities and every minority group.

so the point is once you create something like this you have no control of the end result. you've basically created a Frankenstein monster that you have no control of.

Correction - nobody pushes Angry Hobbit into anything. Just ask @gpseymour . But yes, if you and Gerry quit, Angry Hobbit WOULD become more angry. And that would be bad.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Seriously speaking - an interesting topic. I would need to think about this more, but, so far, I can only see a larger MA/SD organization with communal oversight going two ways: it will either be a very liberal, laid-back organization, with multiple flexible curricula, lots of freedom for students to pick out what they want to learn and when and, of necessity, multiple instructors specialized in a variety of things (from classical form to strictly self-defense); OR it will turn into something exceedingly formal, with ritual and curriculum precisely outlined down to the smallest detail, and agreed upon by vote. Both have a prodigious amount of pros and cons, and each is bound to have its own appeal to a group of followers. Even with many years of forecasting experience under my belt, I cannot predict, which of these models has greater potential, effectiveness, and longevity.

 

[skribs]

Seriously speaking - an interesting topic. I would need to think about this more, but, so far, I can only see a larger MA/SD organization with communal oversight going two ways: it will either be a very liberal, laid-back organization, with multiple flexible curricula, lots of freedom for students to pick out what they want to learn and when and, of necessity, multiple instructors specialized in a variety of things (from classical form to strictly self-defense); OR it will turn into something exceedingly formal, with ritual and curriculum precisely outlined down to the smallest detail, and agreed upon by vote. Both have a prodigious amount of pros and cons, and each is bound to have its own appeal to a group of followers. Even with many years of forecasting experience under my belt, I cannot predict, which of these models has greater potential, effectiveness, and longevity.

I just had a vision of a Martial Arts university. Get masters and instructors qualified in different martial arts to teach classes. Let's say I sign up as a student here.

The first step is to pick my major. Let's say I go with Taekwondo. I'm a 2nd degree black belt, nearly third degree so I take a placement exam and qualify for Taekwondo 251. I am encouraged to help out with the Taekwondo 011-099 classes as a TA, and I can also help out with the 101-199 classes, but I have to wait until I qualify for Taekwondo 301 in order to assist with the 200-level classes.

There are several different masters who teach Taekwondo here. I am required to take Taekwondo 251, which focuses on forms and foundations at the higher 2nd-degree level. I can also pick between Taekwondo 254 (olympic-style sparring), Taekwondo 257 (ITF style sparring), or Taekwondo 260 (self defense).

As electives, I can take Taekwondo 252 (practical applications), Taekwondo 256 (point sparring), Taekwondo 261 (board breaking), or Taekwondo 270 (history of Taekwondo). I can also take Korean language classes to supplement my Taekwondo training.

Now, if I want to dabble in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as well, I can. Because I know how to fall already, and I am an orange belt in Hapkido (which would qualify me for Hapkido 30-45), maybe I qualify for BJJ-020 to BJJ-029 and I can work my way up there.

 

[hoshin1600]

Seriously speaking - an interesting topic. I would need to think about this more, but, so far, I can only see a larger MA/SD organization with communal oversight going two ways: it will either be a very liberal, laid-back organization, with multiple flexible curricula, lots of freedom for students to pick out what they want to learn and when and, of necessity, multiple instructors specialized in a variety of things (from classical form to strictly self-defense); OR it will turn into something exceedingly formal, with ritual and curriculum precisely outlined down to the smallest detail, and agreed upon by vote. Both have a prodigious amount of pros and cons, and each is bound to have its own appeal to a group of followers. Even with many years of forecasting experience under my belt, I cannot predict, which of these models has greater potential, effectiveness, and longevity.

But this is nothing new. In the US we have 60 years of empirical data on what happens to martial arts organizations. we know what happened to martial arts in China when the Government mandated controls on the types of martial arts practiced. we have seen it in Japan and Korea. at best it stagnates the process of continuous improvement.

i think having a laid back & flexible over sight board would be an impossible dream. that is basically what we have now without regulations. you cant get anymore flexible and variable than the sovereign individual. the only option from where we are now is more restrictions. so who and what are we going to restrict? it is the nature of people that when in power they want to stay in power. so that means regulation in their favor not yours and mine.
i made a joke of it but think about these forums and how much we disagree on things. how everyone thinks their way and their art is the best.
then what happens when the pressure it put on that board for certain results? what happens when a teacher molests a child student and the public demands the board to do something about it?
what happens when individuals who cant meet certain criteria are denied their licence then proceed to teach martial arts anyway? what is the punishment , a fine? when they dont pay the fine...imprisonment? so who thinks karate teachers who dont teach TKD kicks should go to prison? no ...? no prison? then how to you propose we enforce the guidelines set forth by this "core curriculum"

ive told this story before but some years ago i wanted to teach a kickboxing program at a gym (not aerobic but actual kick boxing with heavy bags and such) i was told by the gym that i needed my aerobic instructors certificate. i tried to explain that i dont teach aerobics. they didnt understand the concept of not being an aerobic program.
so i didnt get to teach there, their house their rules, but imagine not being able to teach any where because you have a different product than what some knuckle head behind a desk thinks martial arts SHOULD be because they have no martial arts experience. it should also be noted that the available experience will be more and more focused as these core curriculum practices take hold.

i could go on and on ,, the bottom line is a core curriculum is nothing but a funnel and its a downward spiral at that.

 

[hoshin1600]

I just had a vision of a Martial Arts university. Get masters and instructors qualified in different martial arts to teach classes. Let's say I sign up as a student here.

The first step is to pick my major. Let's say I go with Taekwondo. I'm a 2nd degree black belt, nearly third degree so I take a placement exam and qualify for Taekwondo 251. I am encouraged to help out with the Taekwondo 011-099 classes as a TA, and I can also help out with the 101-199 classes, but I have to wait until I qualify for Taekwondo 301 in order to assist with the 200-level classes.

There are several different masters who teach Taekwondo here. I am required to take Taekwondo 251, which focuses on forms and foundations at the higher 2nd-degree level. I can also pick between Taekwondo 254 (olympic-style sparring), Taekwondo 257 (ITF style sparring), or Taekwondo 260 (self defense).

As electives, I can take Taekwondo 252 (practical applications), Taekwondo 256 (point sparring), Taekwondo 261 (board breaking), or Taekwondo 270 (history of Taekwondo). I can also take Korean language classes to supplement my Taekwondo training.

Now, if I want to dabble in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu as well, I can. Because I know how to fall already, and I am an orange belt in Hapkido (which would qualify me for Hapkido 30-45), maybe I qualify for BJJ-020 to BJJ-029 and I can work my way up there.

but other than frame work and a subtle shift in approach how is that any different then what we have now?

 

[skribs]

but other than frame work and a subtle shift in approach how is that any different then what we have now?

In several ways:

1. Multiple arts covered in the same location. Not like an MMA gym where you have someone with a wrestling background and someone with a striking background, but credible masters in multiple arts.
2. Multiple masters in the same art. Some Taekwondo masters specialize in the more traditional style, some are better at the modern sparring styles. So you can get the best training for each aspect of your art, especially in an art with a lot of different applications (such as sport, demonstration, and defense).
3. The opportunity for language, history, and culture classes on the same location as your martial arts training.
4. A campus built from the ground up to facilitate martial arts training. For some this might not seem like much, but for people who have to practice in a warehouse that's been fitted out with a few mats it might be a nice boon.

Of course, this is a vision that will probably never come to pass. In order to do something like this, it would be a huge venture. You'd need to build the facility, structure the classes, hire dozens of masters, get them to agree to a college-style course listing...and at that point I don't know how much the tuition would be and if it would have enough interest to stay in business.

However, I have an active imagination, and this seems like a cool place to go to school.

 

[AngryHobbit]

ive told this story before but some years ago i wanted to teach a kickboxing program at a gym (not aerobic but actual kick boxing with heavy bags and such) i was told by the gym that i needed my aerobic instructors certificate. i tried to explain that i dont teach aerobics. they didnt understand the concept of not being an aerobic program.
so i didnt get to teach there, their house their rules, but imagine not being able to teach any where because you have a different product than what some knuckle head behind a desk thinks martial arts SHOULD be because they have no martial arts experience. it should also be noted that the available experience will be more and more focused as these core curriculum practices take hold.

OMG, that is INSANE! That makes no sense! I've never done kickboxing, but I can certainly understand the difference between kickboxing for fighting and kickboxing aerobics. While it might be helpful for those teaching kickboxing aerobics to be well-trained in kickboxing to be qualified to translate the concepts from fighting into dancing, those who teach kickboxing as a martial art shouldn't need aerobics certification by any stretch. That is preposterous!

Now I am paranoid. I want to get my Zumba instructor certification - do you suppose they will tell me to go get a chef's license or something before I can get certified?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OMG, that is INSANE! That makes no sense! I've never done kickboxing, but I can certainly understand the difference between kickboxing for fighting and kickboxing aerobics. While it might be helpful for those teaching kickboxing aerobics to be well-trained in kickboxing to be qualified to translate the concepts from fighting into dancing, those who teach kickboxing as a martial art shouldn't need aerobics certification by any stretch. That is preposterous!

Now I am paranoid. I want to get my Zumba instructor certification - do you suppose they will tell me to go get a chef's license or something before I can get certified?

I expect what the gym really meant (and didn't even get out properly) was that they see it as a "group fitness" class, so expected "group fitness instructor" certification. That wouldn't surprise me at many places.

 

[AngryHobbit]

A martial arts university would be an interesting thing. But there are bound to be challenges.

When I was an engineering student, we had three different instructors teaching Fluid Dynamics. One of them was TERRIBLE in the classroom, although a great applied scientist and not too awful if you worked one-on-one with him. Two other ones were good classroom instructors but more superficial when it came to the understanding of the subject itself. They all taught from the same textbook but, needless to say, students who emerged from their classes had VERY different knowledge of Fluid Dynamics beyond the basics. And don't get me started on the havoc when they tried subbing for one another.

So, at a martial arts university, if you have multiple instructors from the same style - who decides on the curriculum? Who decides on the recommended reading, the forms, the understanding of principles? Do they take a vote? Do they appeal to the greater body of martial artists if there is a disagreement? What would be the process, if a student decides to transition from one instructor to another (happens all the time at school and in college)? What if the student transfers from instructor A to instructor B, and B finds the student's training unsatisfactory because he disagrees with A, and makes the student re-take lower-level courses?

Martial arts or not, it would still be a form of academia, and, sadly, I have yet to find academia without politics and strife.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes. Whose standards are going to win out? If we allow for instance, a HKD and JGW blend, who insures I know the JGW techniques well enough to teach, and vice versa?

I want to answer this one so bad. lol.

There's a lot that's going on in this question of yours. It's a good question.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A martial arts university would be an interesting thing.

China has one and it didn't turn out too good for martial arts as a fighting system. It became watered down very fast.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How? By defining technique? How is a punch done in a martial sport different than a punch done in a martial art?

I have 2 types of punches. That come from the same techniques. The first punch is for sparring. It allows me to practice a punch that would otherwise cause great harm. The second punch should only be used in a self-defense scenario. It's the same technique, but the targeting is different. In sparring I may land the punches on non-vital areas. In self-defense I would be targeting those vital areas.

Boxing does the same thing with their rule of "No hitting behind the head.." In a self-defense scenario you can take those same techniques and hit where sporting rules won't allow. So in cases like this you have 1 technique but 2 different types of punches.

 

[skribs]

A martial arts university would be an interesting thing. But there are bound to be challenges.

When I was an engineering student, we had three different instructors teaching Fluid Dynamics. One of them was TERRIBLE in the classroom, although a great applied scientist and not too awful if you worked one-on-one with him. Two other ones were good classroom instructors but more superficial when it came to the understanding of the subject itself. They all taught from the same textbook but, needless to say, students who emerged from their classes had VERY different knowledge of Fluid Dynamics beyond the basics. And don't get me started on the havoc when they tried subbing for one another.

So, at a martial arts university, if you have multiple instructors from the same style - who decides on the curriculum? Who decides on the recommended reading, the forms, the understanding of principles? Do they take a vote? Do they appeal to the greater body of martial artists if there is a disagreement? What would be the process, if a student decides to transition from one instructor to another (happens all the time at school and in college)? What if the student transfers from instructor A to instructor B, and B finds the student's training unsatisfactory because he disagrees with A, and makes the student re-take lower-level courses?

Martial arts or not, it would still be a form of academia, and, sadly, I have yet to find academia without politics and strife.

Each instructor has their own courses and teaches their way. If you are in charge of the forms class, you pick which forms. Alternatively, if there are several different form classes, you choose which class you want to teach.

Just like in Psychology you might have one professor teach Jungian psychology and another teach Attachment Theory.

I have 2 types of punches. That come from the same techniques. The first punch is for sparring. It allows me to practice a punch that would otherwise cause great harm. The second punch should only be used in a self-defense scenario. It's the same technique, but the targeting is different. In sparring I may land the punches on non-vital areas. In self-defense I would be targeting those vital areas.

Boxing does the same thing with their rule of "No hitting behind the head.." In a self-defense scenario you can take those same techniques and hit where sporting rules won't allow. So in cases like this you have 1 technique but 2 different types of punches.

In Taekwondo, I have several different ways of doing a roundhouse kick:

1. For sparring, the roundhouse kick is done with a bit of a hop, my kicking arm is used as a counter-weight for extra speed, and I'm going to do a shorter kick with the goal of activating the sensors on the opponent's chestguard.
2. For demonstration, the kick is slower, with an exaggerated chamber and a hold at the apex of the kick, with a controlled return to the ground. My body is well balanced throughout.
3. For practical issues, I swing my whole body through the kick to put as much force into it as I can.

It will change, too, depending on my target, but there is definitely a difference in how you use your moves on the street. In boxing or wrestling, especially, you have a lot of techniques you CAN'T use. For example, you can't do a hip throw in boxing and you can't palm strike the chin in wrestling.

 

[dvcochran]

How? By defining technique? How is a punch done in a martial sport different than a punch done in a martial art?

You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Remember when you were new and totally ignorant to MA. How did you know you were not walking into a rip off? Not to say it would ever be fool proof. I am just very tired to the way bad schools damage the MA reputation over and over, usually with a very similar MO.

 

[dvcochran]

I though your first post was tongue in cheek, but it seems your serious,
SO
Are you trying to measure inputs or out puts, your tanning example measures inputs, the nature of the tubes, maintenance, supervisors understanding, no one comes to measure if you got the tan you wanted.

You can set criteria for dojos, instructers, Knowledge, etc,but that in no ways means that they will be capable ma at the end, if you don't measure outputs, you have no way of knowing if your inputs are the correct ones

The tanning analogy refers to minimum requirements to open and keep the doors open. In no way does it guarantee how good a tan a person gets, or in your example outputs. That depends largely on how many times they show up to set in the booth. Same would be, and is true of any MA student. Quantity has very little to do with quality.

 

[jobo]

The tanning analogy refers to minimum requirements to open and keep the doors open. In no way does it guarantee how good a tan a person gets, or in your example outputs. That depends largely on how many times they show up to set in the booth. Same would be, and is true of any MA student. Quantity has very little to do with quality.

Well no the tanning out puts depend on the tubes and the genetics of the person for each visit.

But your not answering my question, if you don't measure out puts, you can't possibly know your inputs are correct , how will you measure outputs?